Author Topic: Suggestions to improve vehicle upgrades  (Read 606 times)

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 327
Right now, engine upgrades in NCG all do the same thing, which is just make the power and torque graphs steeper with a single modifier.

Imo there should be more options to affect the engine, for example: the race air intake adds, say, 5% power, 2% torque, and 0% to the rev range, while the race camshaft could add 4% power and torque, and add 10% to the variables relating to max revs, peak power and peak torque.

This would probably also negate the problem that the current system has where some fully upgraded cars handle terribly as they have too much torque and power too early, as well as allowing for balance changes later on if a car becomes too op by lowering just the power or torque of some upgrades.

I hope you can take this suggestion on board as it would make upgrades more interesting than they are now
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:22:38 PM by PsychOXRat »
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PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 327
So, one thing that's puzzled me for ages is the fact that the vehicle physics use the tyre values of "Freckwest", the tyres advertised on a lot of the ad boards around circuits, as none of the cars actually use those tyres.

Most use a tyre brand called "Beagle", while some of the others use "Grundope", "Kolessa", Goround" and Streamside, with some vehicles using a different variant of a manufacturer's tyres.

I believe that to improve these parts of the vehicles is to give each tyre brand/model its own physics depending on what tyre is actually on the car. This could also help with how cars become uncontrollable after engine upgrades as they're using tyres that have been tuned for lower powered cars with less torque and power as there could be tyre upgrades that visually change the tyre texture on the cars as well as the physics so that higher powered cars have acces to better quality tyres. This would need to be locked in some way so that low powered cars don't have access to too much grip for their needs, so maybe the better tyre upgrades could unlock after a specific power/torque point is reached per car.

Coupled with the previous suggestion, this could help with some cars becoming terrible to drive after upgrading them.
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sam223

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It already is locked away rat. Its in shared/physics/tiredynamics. Theres a file for each surface. Gravel/tarmac etc and then within each file is a list of tire dynamics per surface. There was 10 different profiles at one point (im still using my own old files),dunno how many there are now. But it means you can have multiple tire dynamics per surface referenced by the tire parts (parts/tires) file.

Basically every set of front or rear tires on every car, can have its own set of dynamics, per surface.

Or gravel tires which are bad on tarmac and vice versa.

Bugbear currently uses Freckwest2 on every tire i think (or almost all)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:47:22 PM by sam223 »
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PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 327
I know it's there, however every single tyre as of now on every car uses just one setting, "freckwest2" whereas before those values were even in the game different cars differentiated between light and heavy variants of racing, rally, and standard tyres when that was an option depending on if the car was heavy or light. I had a chat with Janne a while ago on Steam about tyres, and his reasoning for all cars using just freckwest2 was because "in reality these cars of course have same kinds of tyres" after stating that it "wasn't preferable" to have different tyre profiles for different tyres.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:52:50 PM by PsychOXRat »
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Janne Suur-Näkki

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  • Posts: 1961
Well - maybe claiming that that the type of cars our game has all use similar tyres was cutting some corners. I was mainly thinking of the type of demolition derby cars we have here, they all run with worn-out summer tyres or even M+S and that's about it. Now of course some derby cars especially stateside have those large mud tires and so on, so indeed there's variation in reality.

The underlying physics tech is there indeed, but the thing is that while Wreckfest has some things common with simulators it's not trying to be full-blown simulator, especially not a rally or a circuit racing one where different tyre setups make a lot of sense. Likewise, while the thought of trying to simulate different tyres is enticing especially for those of us who are into simulators, it doesn't seem all that justified for Wreckfest. Also, to do that we would need to obtain real-world tyre data (which is not easy to come by) and spend a considerable amount of time on the tyre profiles, possibly on physics tech as well (it's not perfect since it was not necessary for this game), while I believe only a marginal fraction of our player base feel happy using time for something like that.

All that said, I guess the main takeway from all this is that we want to keep Wreckfest an accessible game.

sam223

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  • Posts: 3106
Well - maybe claiming that that the type of cars our game has all use similar tyres was cutting some corners. I was mainly thinking of the type of demolition derby cars we have here, they all run with worn-out summer tyres or even M+S and that's about it. Now of course some derby cars especially stateside have those large mud tires and so on, so indeed there's variation in reality.

The underlying physics tech is there indeed, but the thing is that while Wreckfest has some things common with simulators it's not trying to be full-blown simulator, especially not a rally or a circuit racing one where different tyre setups make a lot of sense. Likewise, while the thought of trying to simulate different tyres is enticing especially for those of us who are into simulators, it doesn't seem all that justified for Wreckfest. Also, to do that we would need to obtain real-world tyre data (which is not easy to come by) and spend a considerable amount of time on the tyre profiles, possibly on physics tech as well (it's not perfect since it was not necessary for this game), while I believe only a marginal fraction of our player base feel happy using time for something like that.

All that said, I guess the main takeway from all this is that we want to keep Wreckfest an accessible game.

I agree with your rational, because IRL there are tire options even on bangers. With lots of people running aftermarket remolds just to be competitive. You'd see the same thing in game imo,everyone would just run the fastest tire and ignore the rest. Options might be useful e.g road tire/offroad. But then everyone would just run whatever suited the surface,and anyone who didn't realise you could change would moan about grip levels on certain surfaces.
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Paul_B

  • Posts: 256
Janne,

I know you can't go the full on simulation route on tyre tech, but is it possible to do something with air pressure settings ?
Hard core sim devs do spend a lot time an money on tyre tech, an can still get it wrong.

Will the tyre options like soft/hard ever make back into the game at anytime ?


Paul
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 08:49:29 PM by Paul_B »
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sam223

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  • Posts: 3106
Janne,

I know you can't go the full on simulation route on tyre tech, but is it possible to do something with air pressure settings ?
Hard core sim devs do spend a lot time an money on tyre tech, an can still get it wrong.

Will the tyre options like soft/hard ever make back into the game at anytime ?


Paul

+1 this would be good, options rather than upgrades.
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Janne Suur-Näkki

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  • Posts: 1961
Well said, Sam, I completely agree. In a game like this tyre choice wouldn't be a matter of personal preference (or something made in relation to the rest of you car's setup) especially seeing as we would have to make the difference pretty obvious, otherwise 99.9% of the players wouldn't notice anything - and then it would be indeed just something that people need to do to be competitive.

Paul, not likely - it would make a minuscule difference to 99.9% of the users so in the larger scheme of things it doesn't seem justified.

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 327
Ok, so the tyres being on a per visual tyre basis won't happen, options would be something nice to have, with rally tyres having more grip offroad and less on road, standard having the base on and offroad performance, and racing better on road but worse offroad performance. Rally tyres would be better at gravel, standard at mixed, racing at tarmac, nothing major needs to be done here except changing the surface grip value to increase or decrease on a surface in the tyre profile.

But what about the suggestion about engine upgrades as currently that's proving to be an issue for cars like the bulldog that become almost undriveable once upgraded because of how they currently work as the tyres simply can't handle the torque that's being sent to them yet somehow still have longitudinal grip but no lateral grip when the tyres spin. This is why we see some cars begin dominating, because some cars that could be competitive are unable to be competitive as the upgrades given to them cause the car to drive horrendously.

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Purple44

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Because we can't change parts online, does that mean Janne, we will not see the return of dirt and race tires?

Sure would be nice to have tires with a bit more grip for asphalt tracks. I'm always smoking my tires and rearend coming loose on asphalt tracks using no assists.
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sam223

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  • Posts: 3106
Because we can't change parts online, does that mean Janne, we will not see the return of dirt and race tires?

Sure would be nice to have tires with a bit more grip for asphalt tracks. I'm always smoking my tires and rearend coming loose on asphalt tracks using no assists.

The difference between surfaces is pretty minor at the minute purple

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Heddly

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  • Posts: 630
Well - maybe claiming that that the type of cars our game has all use similar tyres was cutting some corners. I was mainly thinking of the type of demolition derby cars we have here, they all run with worn-out summer tyres or even M+S and that's about it. Now of course some derby cars especially stateside have those large mud tires and so on, so indeed there's variation in reality.

The underlying physics tech is there indeed, but the thing is that while Wreckfest has some things common with simulators it's not trying to be full-blown simulator, especially not a rally or a circuit racing one where different tyre setups make a lot of sense. Likewise, while the thought of trying to simulate different tyres is enticing especially for those of us who are into simulators, it doesn't seem all that justified for Wreckfest. Also, to do that we would need to obtain real-world tyre data (which is not easy to come by) and spend a considerable amount of time on the tyre profiles, possibly on physics tech as well (it's not perfect since it was not necessary for this game), while I believe only a marginal fraction of our player base feel happy using time for something like that.

All that said, I guess the main takeway from all this is that we want to keep Wreckfest an accessible game.

I agree with your rational, because IRL there are tire options even on bangers. With lots of people running aftermarket remolds just to be competitive. You'd see the same thing in game imo,everyone would just run the fastest tire and ignore the rest. Options might be useful e.g road tire/offroad. But then everyone would just run whatever suited the surface,and anyone who didn't realise you could change would moan about grip levels on certain surfaces.

When I raced my Dirt Modified @ Florence Speedway they had  a tire rule, all cars used a Hoosier tire, all with the same "compound" that all cars had to use, like a stock tire for that track. That solved problems with expense and made the field  of cars more competitive.