Author Topic: AI Drivers Need Work  (Read 552 times)

Optimore

  • Posts: 1
Some of this stuff should really be looked at, as it makes playing through the campaign a real chore. I don't actually know if this is how the AI "actually" works, since it's based on in-game observation rather than knowing how the AI is coded.

The AI only has one route through each course. They will all crash into each other at the start as they all try to get on it, and will proceed to drive in perfect single-file for the rest of the race. Not only does this look stupid, but it's very tedious to try and pass these cars, especially with how they seem to race perfectly at all times (until they decide to ram).

The ramming behavior also needs serious work. The AI, when the "ram" behavior is triggered, seem to go about it in a completely suicidal way that makes no sense. They will ram you when you're taking an outside line on their turn, causing both you and them to fly off the track and drop several places. In other times, their ramming is so weak so as to be negligible, or at least easily manageable even in the lightest cars. They only ever seem to ram by steering into the player from the side, rather than what human players seem to prefer, which is simply to not brake at a turn and rear-end the driver in front of them.   

The AI does seem to have some primitive collision avoidance behaviors, because when I've been alongside them I can sometimes bully them into going off their routes without hitting them. Other times, though, they will try to stick onto the route extremely stubbornly (to the point where KillerBees can shove my Dominator around on the straights, somehow). It's also possible to keep the AI from passing you if you're in first place simply by driving along their route in front of them, because as mentioned before, they will never ram the player from behind.

The AI difficulty also doesn't make any sense. The AI seems to drive perfectly (or near-perfectly: I can count on seeing an AI screw up maybe once or twice in a race... one AI making one mistake per race, that is), and will ram the player totally randomly on all difficulties, with the only appreciable difference between all 3 levels being how fast the AI are allowed to accelerate. I don't know if this is intentional, and the difficulty is meant to represent how close to the class limit the AI car's point score is, or if this is just lazy coding. It's stupid either way.   


Also, a minor gripe/bug report: In B-class campaign races, I see Rocket AI in pole positions with incredibly consistency (8 out of 10 times, or thereabouts). I'm not sure if this is a quirk of the AI, sheer coincidence, or the Rocket being overpowered in B-class, but it's worth noting I guess.

FalconXY

  • Posts: 249
This is absolutely correct and you have well listed the AI flaws that should be worked on.

I hate this "suicidal" ramming from the AI. That was not what we meant by "AI should be more aggressive against the player". That's just too ridiculous.

AI need to ram from behind or push the players car and try to overtake or pit the rear end just to get in front.
That's what the AI should do instead of these "suicidal" hits from the side.

It's way too easy to overtake most of the AI cars during the race start because they are trying to get into their race line.
Intel i7-3770, 8GB RAM, ATI R9 390X 8GB, Win10 64bit, G27 wheel

Janne Suur-Näkki

  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2020
I guess you folks don't remember that early on the AI used to be like that, ramming the player from behind in corners. Back then it was one of the main causes of frustration and it's quite easy to see why, because as a player you have almost no chance to be prepared for something like that while slowing down to a corner and often times it ended up with the AI pushing the player off the track. Also, if the AI behavior was like that you would get an even worse impression that the AI is going on rails and not even "seeing" the player.


vveyro

  • Posts: 78
One way to create more mayhem might be AI attacking slightly more other AI, but not player. So it would look more "wild" without getting frustrating

But it would also make AI slower, when they waste time on crashing into each other. The thing I most hope for, would be AI buying upgrades :( Hope it could be implemented post-launch. Expert AI is competitive, until you purchase fully upgraded car... and they don't. "AI buys upgrades" could be in difficulty options, enabling it would grant XP bonus

I don't feel the current AI behavior is frustrating, or particularly "suicidal". They were much more frustrating in some earlier build, where they indeed rammed the player from behind in corners. Why would someone want that? Very frustrating, as the cars don't have even mirrors, and it really made it seem like they don't even see you. Perhaps kind of smart move from them, but AI ending your race like this on the last lap wasn't particularly fun, did you even play the earlier builds? Why would we want that back

What are the options, really...

- Hitting from the side like now
- Hitting from the back
- Hitting ineffectively
- Not hitting at alll
- Hitting very effectively from the back, in corners, ending your race. (Like before) To the point of where you want to throw your PC from a window

Take your pick.

Only problem I see is how AI is following a bit too much their line, not attacking each other. So you might not see almost any crashes, unless you provoke them yourself. But I also don't want the AI to become less competitive... its tough equation, creating good AI is very difficult. Lots of racing games struggle with it, for example Assetto Corsa took years to get it right, and it still isn't perfect. And all those cars need to do, is be fast without ramming others... Also, AI having weak starts is still a problem in Assetto Corsa too. Easiest time to overtake is starts
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:57:18 PM by vveyro »

Defectiv

  • Posts: 41
Mmm, good points, sometimes you forget how things were once.

But the AI being more aggressive towards each other, less ideal line bound when close together, and not divebomb so much when you're on the outside would be better.

Even the occasional tap from behind I wouldn't mind it if it was just occasional and a tap, not a blind suicide rear ender to send both off.

But right now the divebombing just seems too easy to trigger. And if the ramming from behind would be anything like that... Yeah then that would be way worse than divebombing is now. At least now when you know you're outside you can respond by tapping the breaks, hitting their rear quarter and taking them out, or slow a bit to be able to lean on them so they cant charge at you.
But if they have that behavior when bumping from behind... You'd have no way to counter at all... You'd be a sitting duck.
CPU: i7-7700 Mem: 32gb GFX: GTX 1080ti OS: W10x64

Janne Suur-Näkki

  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2020
We're just testing some tweaks to the AI behavior, might be worthwhile to go with something like these to gather feedback.

After the tweaks, the divebombing in the middle of the corner (especially tighter ones) is reduced, and when ramming in the straights it's more like the AI is trying to sideswipe or push you outside, not doing that suicidal divebomb anymore like the current build. Also, the AI no longer slows down that much after giving the player a push from the behind, making it seem somewhat combative. Also, the AI more aggressive towards other AI players with the easy difficult, and slightly less against player with hard difficulty. Medium difficulty is, well, in the middle.

Frisker

  • Posts: 1278
We're just testing some tweaks to the AI behavior, might be worthwhile to go with something like these to gather feedback.

After the tweaks, the divebombing in the middle of the corner (especially tighter ones) is reduced, and when ramming in the straights it's more like the AI is trying to sideswipe or push you outside, not doing that suicidal divebomb anymore like the current build. Also, the AI no longer slows down that much after giving the player a push from the behind, making it seem somewhat combative. Also, the AI more aggressive towards other AI players with the easy difficult, and slightly less against player with hard difficulty. Medium difficulty is, well, in the middle.

I would like some sort of simple "driver profiles" system, where you could create few somewhat generic templates for AI, like "poor cleanigh racer" "rammer" "The pro guy who drives fast" types, and then assign them randomly for any of the 24 AI. That way some of the drivers would be aggressive while others less so.

I think it would also be nice for heat races, where you can look at the standings and you see the certain few people always winning the race(Like good drivers online often end up winning no matter where they start on the grid). It could create some rivarly in career mode similar to how we all hate Jack Benton and Sofia Martinez in FO2.

I haven't slept much today but I hope you get what I mean.

i5 2310, 2.9Ghz
GeForce GTX 750 ti, 2Gb
8Gb's RAM

TheEngiGuy

  • *
  • Posts: 550
We're just testing some tweaks to the AI behavior, might be worthwhile to go with something like these to gather feedback.

After the tweaks, the divebombing in the middle of the corner (especially tighter ones) is reduced, and when ramming in the straights it's more like the AI is trying to sideswipe or push you outside, not doing that suicidal divebomb anymore like the current build. Also, the AI no longer slows down that much after giving the player a push from the behind, making it seem somewhat combative. Also, the AI more aggressive towards other AI players with the easy difficult, and slightly less against player with hard difficulty. Medium difficulty is, well, in the middle.

I would like some sort of simple "driver profiles" system, where you could create few somewhat generic templates for AI, like "poor cleanigh racer" "rammer" "The pro guy who drives fast" types, and then assign them randomly for any of the 24 AI. That way some of the drivers would be aggressive while others less so.

Isn't such system already in the game?

Janne Suur-Näkki

  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2020
Yes, it is and a couple of different profiles are already used like drifter and late breaker. The problem with the profiles is that while it may sound great on a paper, to really see any difference in-game (if you're just an ordinary guy playing the game) you would have to make the profiles so wildly different that the AI would appear mostly broken.

vveyro

  • Posts: 78
One thing forgot to mention, AI in oval races... at least Expert AI, there is very rarely any spectacular crashes. Even in long races, like 20 laps. The easy shape of the track maybe makes them more predictable? Maybe Ovals could have a special tweak, where they get a bit more loose/aggressive towards each other, than on other track types

Janne Suur-Näkki

  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2020
Yes, you're right - since the performance difference between the cars in one class is pretty small, there are not many overtaking opportunities for the AI car and thus not many chances to go aggro towards each other.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 06:23:33 PM by Janne Suur-Näkki »

vveyro

  • Posts: 78
I guess its just the nature of oval racing. To compete in NASCAR, you just need a good rope to tie the wheel down, and lots of coffee to stay awake ;D

Frisker

  • Posts: 1278
I'm sorry I had not noticed that. If it's already in the game then I can't think of any good response to it.

Appreciate your reply Janne! I'll think this idea through, and if I have improvements I'll be sure to let you know.

I guess its just the nature of oval racing. To compete in NASCAR, you just need a good rope to tie the wheel down, and lots of coffee to stay awake ;D

In you intentionally NASCAR you ram someone, I imagine it would get you banned.

In Wreckfest oval racing, everybody does not stick to set racing line since there are usually no rules. In Wreckfest, there generally isn't.

The thing is, NASCAR drivers care about position, winning. Wreckfest multiplayer don't. It's mayhem. It's fun.
In real race that  would never happen.

I'm really not trying to sound like a dick here, but see the difference?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 01:02:04 AM by Frisker »

i5 2310, 2.9Ghz
GeForce GTX 750 ti, 2Gb
8Gb's RAM

vveyro

  • Posts: 78
Well tbh the NASCAR comment was purely a joke  :) But I wish the AI oval races reminded a bit more online oval races. I care somewhat about winning online, it just may involve some wrecking now and then
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:13:32 AM by vveyro »

Zebulon55

  • *
  • Posts: 962

The thing is, NASCAR drivers care about position, winning.

Also safety, damage cost, laps complete = points, sponsor exposure & reputation.
Wreckers obviously don't fare well in real racing.

In a video game, you never get injured & you get a new car next start.  8)

Well, maybe you get repetitive stress injuries if you overdo it.  :-\
Dell Inspiron 17 7720 with Nvidia GT650 graphics. Keyboard control.

Lame, I know.