Author Topic: Can a track be design to give the Sedan an even chance to win the race .........  (Read 2964 times)

Purple44

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  • Posts: 8355
Can a track be design to give the Sedan an even chance to win the race against a faster car like the Muscle 2 car?


While at work Friday night, got to thinking about new track idea ( will make a new thread for that idea later ) and I got to thinking, how could I design a track where the Sedan could have a fair chance to win a race against the Muscle 2 car ( fastest WF car right now )? Here what I came up with.

What if the Muscle 2 car and the Sedan took alternative routes and Sedan route would be short enough that Sedan would arrive back to where the 2 alternative routes come back together at about the same time as the Muscle 2 car?




Now the problem with alternative routes is how we get the player with the Muscle 2 car to take longer yellow route and not the shorter orange route for the Sedan?

1. Make shorter route more dangerous to take. In pic, orange route has 2 crossing. So Muslce 2 car would risk getting T-bone and wrecked. The Sedan is tougher so more likely to survie being T-bone. Also I was thinking making this track a mountain track. So where orange track starts, make that a rough dirt track until orange track meet back up with yellow track.

2. Keep yellow track a asphalt track so it be faster for Muscle 2 and less dangerous route. Where Muscle car could use it speed.

3. With this track lay out, yellow route has no crossings, so player with Muscle 2 car would only have to deal with only one crossing as he goes up the mountain, where the Sedan would have to survive 3 crossings and hope car don't get T-bone.

And for the Sedan player, it be worth taking the dangerous route if he has the chance to get ahead of the Muscle 2 player by taking the shorter, but risky route.

What I really like about this track design is where the two alternative routes come back together. As the Sedan come out of hairpin turn, Sedan building up speed and by time car hits purple part of track, Sedan almost at full speed. Now the Muscle 2 car got to deal with a couple turns that slow the car down and when Muscle 2 come out of final turn, Muscle 2 car is still trying to accelerate as the Sedan zips by him at almost full speed. Now Muscle 2 car got to get up to speed and catch Sedan and pass Sedan again if he can.

I think using alternative routes this way could make for an exciting race between 1st and 2nd player ( 3rd and 4th, etc ). For an example, as the 2 cars go up the mountain, Muscle 2 in the lead, at top of mountain, Muslce 2 go right, Sedan left. Sedan survives the 2 crossings and when Sedan get to where the alternative routes merge, Sedan passes Muscle 2 car. Half way around the purple part of track Muscle 2 car has caught up with the Sedan and is trying to pass. Sedan goes wide in a turn and Muscle 2 get a clean pass and now is back in the lead as both cars are headed up the hill. But all of a sudden, Muscle 2 car get T-BONE by Purple in his Sedan!!

The track would need to be tested to make sure Muscle 2 alternative route is long enough so Sedan and Muslce 2 car meet up where the 2 routes merge. Someone like Brian going get there pretty quick, so would need to use a fast time to judge if yellow alternative route is long enough or slow enough in the last 2 turns.

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Ok I open up the floor, you guys got any ideas that could give a slower car like the Sedan an even chance to win the race against a faster car like the Muscle 2?
Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

Orbotnive T

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  • Posts: 486
Don't have any ideas right now but I wanted to say what a brilliant idea and well considered :)

I'll come back when I've more time if I think of any good ideas.

Oh I think these two cars are by far the most used, probably, but the same basis for tracks for other cars too would make it more interesting to use them IMO.

sam223

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  • Posts: 3243
The sedan is pretty fast now if you use the right engine. Its also one of the most stable cars imo and can take a beating. You could easily win if you keep the race pace up and don't give into the urge to destroy  other cars.
Dell U2515H 25",  i5-4690k @4.0ghz, 16gb ram, MSI GTX 1060 6GB, 120/500gb SSD, 1tb HHD, win 7, G25/Logitech pad

Online Bangers:Wreckfest - https://goo.gl/AjDHU2

Ricsek

  • Posts: 35
The sedan is very good, but a little bit slow and at the moment you can't drive as fast as you can because it is roll over easily, especially on gravel and tarmac

BrianUK

Personally, I don't see the point in tracks tailored to make a specific car competitive. Chances are that the AM1 and Sedan will be in a 'class' together while the AM2 will be further along the career path. The only reason we see such a proliferation of AM2's is because it's seriously competitive on tracks with low speed turns and generally more stable than others.

Also, if the time advantage is enough for the top drivers, everyone will use a Sedan on that track and the whole purpose of the track is nullified.
  • #4

  • Purple44

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    • Posts: 8355
    Personally, I don't see the point in tracks tailored to make a specific car competitive. Chances are that the AM1 and Sedan will be in a 'class' together while the AM2 will be further along the career path. The only reason we see such a proliferation of AM2's is because it's seriously competitive on tracks with low speed turns and generally more stable than others.

    Also, if the time advantage is enough for the top drivers, everyone will use a Sedan on that track and the whole purpose of the track is nullified.

    Could make it a team race, one team take one car and take yellow route and other team takes different car and orange route.

    I just like idea if we could design the right track, 1st and second place players ( or 3rd and 4th, etc ) would have to battle each other to get back into 1st every lap. Would that not make for more exciting race?

    Hmm, another way we could do this if we use team racing is each team would have to complete both alternative routes to complete one lap. But tricky part is how to code it ( need two sets of checkpoints ) and players on one team would have to go right on yellow route and the other team would go left on orange route.

    Maybe could put a sign at entrance to each route. One sign says TEAM RED and other say TEAM BLUE. Depending on what team you are on, you take the alternative route with your color. But if players find it might be better to start with yellow route first instead of orange route for first lap, then players will want to switch to red team if yellow route had the red sign. To stop this game would have to randomly pick which sign yellow and orange alternative routes use. So yellow route would not always be the first route for red team.

    This getting a little complicated, but would not have to worry about trying to get player to use one route over the other route and would still give us the merge where one player's car enter at faster speed than other player. Just now need one alternative route to take a bit longer and have one the routes have a last turn that make players have to slow down for turn ( brake ) so as they reach the merge, their car still accelerating up from the turn.

    I still like the idea of having one route a little more dangerous than the other route.

    Also if this were done for team racing, I think it be better to have shorter alternative routes so teams don't spend half the race, racing just against their own teammates.



    Hmmm, but we could uncomplicate things if Bugbear could do alternative checkpoints. From my custom track making with Flatout 1 and 2, players have to travel through the checkpoints in the right order for lap to count. So using checkpoints for the alternative route would cause a problem.

    Count = 13

    Splitpoints = {
       [1] = {
          Position = { -245.911148, 0.000000, 426.718414 },
          Left = { -245.911148, 0.000000, 415.702118 },
          Right = { -245.911148, 0.000000, 437.734711 },

       },
       [2] = {
          Position = { -142.983215, 0.000000, 415.888000 },
          Left = { -147.463959, 0.000000, 405.824097 },
          Right = { -138.502472, 0.000000, 425.951904 },

       },
       [3] = {
          Position = { -17.099480, 0.000000, 428.570862 },
          Left = { -16.618958, 0.000000, 417.565033 },
          Right = { -17.580002, 0.000000, 439.576691 },

       },
       [4] = {
          Position = { 209.008072, 0.000000, 404.866241 },
          Left = { 198.342651, 0.000000, 402.107971 },
          Right = { 219.673492, 0.000000, 407.624512 },

       },
       [5] = {
          Position = { 207.017929, 0.000000, 230.141510 },
          Left = { 196.954025, 0.000000, 234.622253 },
          Right = { 217.081833, 0.000000, 225.660767 },

       },
       [6] = {
          Position = { 38.023331, 0.000000, 209.805527 },
          Left = { 38.119469, 0.000000, 220.821411 },
          Right = { 37.927193, 0.000000, 198.789642 },

       },
       [7] = {
          Position = { -141.264893, 0.000000, 211.735397 },
          Left = { -141.168762, 0.000000, 222.751282 },
          Right = { -141.361023, 0.000000, 200.719513 },

       },
       [8] = {
          Position = { -211.143402, 0.000000, 98.275734 },
          Left = { -222.149231, 0.000000, 97.795212 },
          Right = { -200.137573, 0.000000, 98.756256 },

       },
       [9] = {
          Position = { -217.369568, 0.000000, -39.142357 },
          Left = { -228.384201, 0.000000, -38.950096 },
          Right = { -206.354935, 0.000000, -39.334618 },

       },
       [10] = {
          Position = { -359.318909, 0.000000, -22.636257 },
          Left = { -351.876404, 0.000000, -14.514182 },
          Right = { -366.761414, 0.000000, -30.758331 },

       },
       [11] = {
          Position = { -405.732483, 0.000000, 250.809967 },
          Left = { -394.716187, 0.000000, 250.809967 },
          Right = { -416.748779, 0.000000, 250.809967 },

       },
       [12] = {
          Position = { -399.025024, 0.000000, 373.398254 },
          Left = { -388.029266, 0.000000, 372.725708 },
          Right = { -410.020782, 0.000000, 374.070801 },

       },
       [13] = {
          Position = { -286.378784, 0.000000, 424.643921 },
          Left = { -286.378784, 0.000000, 413.627625 },
          Right = { -286.378784, 0.000000, 435.660217 },

       },
    }


    Now if throw in 1 more checkpoints for the yellow alternative route, checkpoint 14 that would only get used once every 2 laps and this checkpoint would get use maybe the first lap or the second lap depending which route player took first. Players would to do 2 laps with one using lap using alternative route, this would count as 1 lap. If Wreckfest does checkpoints like Flatout 1 and 2, then could not set up the checkpoints to count alternative route correctly. We would need Bugbear to write new code to handle alternative route checkpoints.

    Here a pic, checkpoint 3 would be a problem:

    Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

    i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

    Orbotnive T

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    • Posts: 486
     :'( Getting complicated  8)

    Brian has a point. But I still like the idea of two routes one being safe and long the other risky and short regardless of cars, to liven it up

    Gerty

    • Posts: 59
    There are three things that ruins racing IMO:
    1. Shortcuts 2. Wide tracks 3. Nitro
    So I don't like the idea at all.
    AMD FX-8320 | 8gb RAM | Nvidia Geforce GTX970 |  Windows 10 Pro x64 | Logitech G27

    Purple44

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    • Posts: 8355
    There are three things that ruins racing IMO:
    1. Shortcuts 2. Wide tracks 3. Nitro
    So I don't like the idea at all.

    Then I take it you did not like Flatout 1 or Flatout 2? They had shortcuts, but there were risks trying to use them.

    Jump to 13:25 to see a city track shortcut in Flatout 2.


    ********************************************************

    Had another idea about alternative routes while at work tonight, but don't have time to do up big post with pics. I should go get some sleep. But I think it a more workable idea.
    Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

    i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

    Gerty

    • Posts: 59
    There are three things that ruins racing IMO:
    1. Shortcuts 2. Wide tracks 3. Nitro
    So I don't like the idea at all.

    Then I take it you did not like Flatout 1 or Flatout 2? They had shortcuts, but there were risks trying to use them.

    Jump to 13:25 to see a city track shortcut in Flatout 2.

    I did like flatout 1&2. But I almost never used shortcuts myself. They only working with bots & catchup.  I tried FO UC multiplayer recently and it felt boring compared to WF. I rather pass opponent in direct fight on track, it far more rewarding & fair.
    AMD FX-8320 | 8gb RAM | Nvidia Geforce GTX970 |  Windows 10 Pro x64 | Logitech G27

    Gerty

    • Posts: 59
    With design like this, most likely, good driver on am2 will use shortcut to build a gap on 1st lap and you will never see him again.
    « Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 08:38:53 PM by Sidekick »
    AMD FX-8320 | 8gb RAM | Nvidia Geforce GTX970 |  Windows 10 Pro x64 | Logitech G27

    Purple44

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    • Posts: 8355
    With design like this, most likely, good driver on am2 will use shortcut to build a gap on 1st lap and you will never see him again.

    Agree that could happen if Mus 2 make it through without getting T-bone at the crossings.

    Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

    i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

    Purple44

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    • Posts: 8355
    Well about the only way my idea of a Sedan and a Muscle 2 cars having a fair race, we would need to use Team racing, red team drive Sedan, blue team drive Muscle 2 and have Bugbear have Wreckfest use two sets of checkpoints, one for red team, one for blue team.



    Now if we could get Bugbear to get team racing to use to different sets of checkpoints, I got another idea on using alternative routes. What if we took a alternative route like this:



    And we mirror this alternative route on the opposite side of the track like this:




    These mirrored alternative routes need to be exactly the same, so the cars coming out of last turn. approach alternative routes at the same speed no matter if car is on the east side of the track or the west side. If one side had a longer approach to the alternative route, then cars would be going through that alternative route faster than the cars going through alternative route on other side of track.

    So here the checkpoints for Blue team:



    And here the checkpoints for Red team:




    As you can see looking at the 2 checkpoint maps above, each team goes through the alternative routes twice in 1 lap. Blue team will go left around the hill at first alternative route and then at second alternative route will go up the hill and back down. Red team will go up the hill and back down at first alternative route and then at second alternative route go left around the hill.

    You either going around the hill or over the top of the hill:



    So in one lap, both teams travel the same distance around the track. The car going over the hill will take longer time than going around the hill. So red player in 1st go up the hill, blue player in 2nd is just behind red player and goes around the hill and come out ahead of red player, so blue player in 1st now. But red player is gaining speed coming down the hill and catches up with blue player as blue player still accelerating from going around the hill.

    And when blue and red player get to the other side of track they get to do it all over again, but this time, red goes around the hill and blue goes up the hill. Who will be in the lead on other side of hill as they burn rubber to the finish line?

    I also would add a little risk to going over the hill. I would make grade steep enough so when hit the top of the hill, if going to fast, car will go airborne and land on other side of hill. So does player slow down as he reaches the top of the hill or does player keep his foot on the gas pedal and take his chances on surviving a rough landing on the other side of the hill? I also would put a small hitch in the road about halfway down the backside of hill, so if you go airborne, you may have to do some quick steering right after car land back on the track to make it through the small hitch in the track.



    I think this track could be doable for Bugbear. And the north and south ends of the track, Bugbear do what ever they want in track layout.
    Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

    i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

    Purple44

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    • Posts: 8355
    I got to thinking about track again and how would I do it if we could not have 2 set of checkpoints for Team racing and instead use 1 set of checkpoints for a regular race or team racing and I came up with these checkpoints:








    You can see now the checkpoints for the alternative routes goes across both routes so player can take either one. Then I had to think of a way to make players chose one or the other. So I start the cars 4 wide and start line is close to where alternative routes start. I'm thinking with cars 4 wide, some players will have no choice but to go left and some will have to go right at start of race. :)

    I got to thinking about how this would play out with players being able to take either alternative route and I think there lots of scenarios to get players to uses one route over the other.

    1. There a sedan going left up the steep hill and I have fast Mus 2 car, I go right around the hill.

    2. Last lap around I saw a couple of wrecks on route around the hill, I'm going left up the hill to avoid wreck cars.

    3. I'm in the Sedan ( I want to wreck other players  ;D ), so I want to go left up the hill so when I come over the top I can see players going around the hill ( far chase cam ), I can now time my speed so I can T-bone them as they come out of alternative route around the hill.

    4. I'm door to door with another player, we coming up to the alternative route fork, So I give player a quick bump and make him go left up the hill while I go right around the hill or vice verse.

    I think these alternative routes with these checkpoints will make players make decisions every lap, which route do I take this time. I think this track would make online race more interesting and it set up more passing opportunities where a player my have to regain his position after going through the alternative routes. I think that would make the racing a little more exciting.

    Now with this version of alternative routes, I think Bugbear could work with this. What you guys think, is this track design a winner now?
    Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

    i5 2500 i7 8700, 16GB, Nvidia 660 960 1060 6GB, Win 10 64bit, DFGT Wheel

    Skunkmeister

    • Posts: 102
    I like the idea of multiple routes, like one that favors a car that accelerates at low speeds well and another route that favours a high speed car with poorer handling, but I think it would be very hard to balance when they are still changing the handling of all the cars.

    I think that is the sort of thing that is only practical to implement once the game is almost finished and there are only tracks left to make (or modders could do it).