Purple44 custom track WIP page.

Thanks for the reply again Andrei.   

Purple kinda longing for the simpler days of Flatout custom track making!  When I could do this to make AI spline points routes for Flatout 1 and 2:



So it as I feared, you got to tweak the AI routes also, for checkpoints to work correctly and sound like I got do more than just set the coordinates for each spline like what was done in Flatout.

Did not have to deal with these "Sectors" in Flatout. And no way I'm going tweak 105 "spline points" ( is spline points still the correct term to use for AI "points\coordinates"? ) by hand!!!

I figure I would leave the AI routes alone until I got this to play with: 



I just for now want to make my custom tracks work online with real players. So is there an easy, dirty way of doing a couple of AI route sectors to make Wreckfest happy? That would cover the gokart track and make my checkpoints work?

And Andrei, my checkpoints would work for the gokart track, correct?  My #0 checkpoint is in the correct spot for the 2 barriers to be the start\finish line? If I got the AI route stuff working? There no other tweaking I need to do to the checkpoints except put back the -1 for the The Alt Route Proxy setting?

It does sound like these AI route sectors are going put a big damper on making custom tracks if we can't get custom checkpoints to work. I was hoping to ask Dummiesman some day after he workout all the clinks in the Blender BGO Exporter for car models, a BIG, BIG, BIG, BIG favor an see if he could workout a Blender Track Editor like I was able to use for Flatout 2 thanks to Gulbroz.



But can the AI route sectors even be done in Blender? Is Bugbear's AI route tool the only good way of setting up the AI routes?

Thanks again Andrei for helping me out. I hope you can find a way for us modders to make custom checkpoints work, at least for online now. But the guys are going want to race these custom tracks offline too, someday.

Maybe use your current checkpoint coordinates for AI route? See how bad they handle it, and add new ones as needed? Then it's not 100s, just 10s

Maybe use your current checkpoint coordinates for AI route? See how bad they handle it, and add new ones as needed? Then it's not 100s, just 10s

10 spline points would not cut it for AI to drive a track "OK", unless the track a drag strip, then I only need about 4 splines. 2 splines for the left and 2 for the right.

I count 53 spline points in this Flatout 2 gokart track, You need spline points to the left and right of the track ( the pink and blue lines ):



The Tarmac 3 gokart track going need at least that many spline points or more I think: 




But now we have a big issue to worry about with Wreckfest, AI uses route sectors. So just tweaking some AI splines not going cut it this time. Compare to what I did with Flatout 1 and 2.

Of course, you could start with a Route that has the Sectors set quite sparsely - for example an oval really needs a dozen or so sectors to make it work. And the checkpoints, of course.
If you want, I can give you a rundown of the requirements and restrictions on how they should be set to work properly. There's a few catches there.

Did not have to deal with these "Sectors" in Flatout. And no way I'm going tweak 105 "spline points" ( is spline points still the correct term to use for AI "points\coordinates"? ) by hand!!!

Well, the correct terms would be Sectors (which consist of vertices, or points in 3D space).
From those Sectors, the game then generates a spline (racing line) for the cars to race on.

You can actually see the Sectors here in this image you linked:

I just for now want to make my custom tracks work online with real players. So is there an easy, dirty way of doing a couple of AI route sectors to make Wreckfest happy? That would cover the gokart track and make my checkpoints work?

There is no easy quick way for that at the moment, at least if you want to do them accurately - not until there is some kind of third-party tool (like FlatOut Track Editor).

And Andrei, my checkpoints would work for the gokart track, correct?  My #0 checkpoint is in the correct spot for the 2 barriers to be the start\finish line? If I got the AI route stuff working? There no other tweaking I need to do to the checkpoints except put back the -1 for the The Alt Route Proxy setting?

I didn't check the coordinates so thoroughly, I just noticed that they are off-track (from the main Route).
But really the checkpoints are easy and quick to get right, the Sectors are the "hard" or laborous part.

But can the AI route sectors even be done in Blender? Is Bugbear's AI route tool the only good way of setting up the AI routes?

Thanks again Andrei for helping me out. I hope you can find a way for us modders to make custom checkpoints work, at least for online now. But the guys are going want to race these custom tracks offline too, someday.

Custom checkpoints should work already no problem. Custom Routes (the bunch of Sectors) are a different thing altogether - although they should work too, they're typically so numerous that editing them is a chore.

The Sectors (that make up the Route) are just a bunch of coordinates, really; they could be generated with anything. Of course we have special tools for that here at Bugbear, but they are not public.

Having said that, I'm discussing with some other devs here if we can find a way to enable modders to make custom Routes (more) easily. I'm not making any promises, but we'll look into it.

Hey I just got the lap count to change to 2/4 laps!



( how them outhouses get in there?? )

Mr21by9, you were close, it took me 13 AI spline points. I took your idea and put an AI set of spline points inside each checkpoint area on the track. Problem is I made the gap between right and left spline point to small so it triggering the red circle in places. I will have to adjust the splines to have a wider space between spline points for my car to drive through and not trigger the red circle.

 

More detail post coming eventually after I get this square away better. Again thanks for the help guys in getting this figured out.

Nice!!

Keep up the good work Purple.   

I tried redoing the AI splines so there be bigger gaps between a pair of spline points. It kinda work, I got less red circles poping up as I went around the track. But then I could not trigger the second lap, even after few laps. I think I screw up an AI spline point some where.



Finally went back to the copy of valer.scne track file that I was able to finish a 4 lap race.
Here a video showing a 4 lap race. You can see the red circle disappearing and reappearing in video. I still think this is cause because the gap between right and left AI spline points is only like 3-4. So easy to get car outside of the Left and Right spline points.






I found if my car runs over my checkpoint rock markers, my lap was not counting and had to redo the lap. So I'm thinking I will add a second rock and use that rock coordinates for the Right inside checkpoint. I want players to be able to hit the first rock and still have their lap count. The turns can get rough and you may get push inside hitting a rock.

Did not have to deal with these "Sectors" in Flatout. And no way I'm going tweak 105 "spline points" ( is spline points still the correct term to use for AI "points\coordinates"? ) by hand!!!

Well, the correct terms would be Sectors (which consist of vertices, or points in 3D space).
From those Sectors, the game then generates a spline (racing line) for the cars to race on.

You can actually see the Sectors here in this image you linked:

It seem I was getting confuse over the word Sectors Andrei. It seem we are talking about the same thing when we are taking about sectors and splines. I'm use to calling the the Left Border and Right Border coordinates spline points from my Flatout 1 and 2 days.

For those that are wondering, what the heck are spline points? The term spline points come from Flatout:

splines.ai    This file tell the AI where to go.

Count = 3

Splines = {
   ["AIBorderLineLeft"] = {
      Count = 24,
      ControlPoints = {
         [1] = { -3.482810, 127.236115, 382.111522},
         [2] = { 123.295513, 127.236115, 377.708103},
         [3] = { 211.017444, 127.236115, 367.061030},
         [4] = { 260.152210, 127.236115, 337.847311},
         [5] = { 328.183319, 127.236115, 253.360214},
         [6] = { 352.525569, 127.236115, 148.796080},
         [7] = { 407.097907, 127.236115, 17.843707},
         [8] = { 416.433513, 127.236115, -25.824952},
         [9] = { 420.855642, 127.236115, -93.828504},
         [10] = { 416.433513, 127.236115, -135.286038},
         [11] = { 352.425201, 127.236115, -234.399643},
         [12] = { 285.282257, 127.236115, -264.821259},
         [13] = { 220.966278, 127.236115, -262.904022},
         [14] = { 171.588120, 127.236115, -235.641068},
         [15] = { 120.658157, 127.236115, -213.728256},
         [16] = { -1.334780, 127.236115, -170.439209},
         [17] = { -88.172791, 127.236115, -116.080582},
         [18] = { -152.553983, 127.236115, -36.148379},
         [19] = { -165.335275, 127.236115, 5.060643},
         [20] = { -153.013986, 127.236115, 117.282088},
         [21] = { -150.582577, 127.236115, 211.331203},
         [22] = { -157.186800, 127.236115, 306.333305},
         [23] = { -141.415550, 127.236115, 343.729497},
         [24] = { -100.804569, 127.236115, 362.986227},
      },
   },

   ["AIBorderLineRight"] = {
      Count = 22,
      ControlPoints = {
         [1] = { 11.333745, 127.236115, 363.774902},
         [2] = { 120.412924, 127.236115, 362.329011},
         [3] = { 198.766501, 127.236115, 353.850782},
         [4] = { 259.265564, 127.236115, 325.580994},
         [5] = { 312.639832, 127.236115, 256.456787},
         [6] = { 338.276487, 127.236115, 131.839652},
         [7] = { 405.132517, 127.236115, 7.886719},
         [8] = { 414.959470, 127.236115, -64.267406},
         [9] = { 405.591116, 127.236115, -146.002764},
         [10] = { 348.453949, 127.236115, -224.618011},
         [11] = { 246.352051, 127.236115, -251.563049},
         [12] = { 140.224976, 127.236115, -207.658325},
         [13] = { 5.655388, 127.236115, -160.449890},
         [14] = { -78.316780, 127.236115, -109.557167},
         [15] = { -147.132616, 127.236115, -25.071182},
         [16] = { -155.478244, 127.236115, 15.379108},
         [17] = { -151.075428, 127.236115, 86.162396},
         [18] = { -143.189803, 127.236115, 191.088633},
         [19] = { -143.452653, 127.236115, 307.056243},
         [20] = { -128.601409, 127.236115, 339.063185},
         [21] = { -72.679181, 127.236115, 365.122219},
         [22] = { -33.251056, 127.236115, 367.619672},
      },
   },

   ["AIRaceLine"] = {
      Count = 0,
      ControlPoints = {
      },
   },

}

Here what spline point look like in Bagedit:



To try and do all them splines points ( 105 and 49 ) by hand, would take forever!!!! Gokart track should not need that many spline points. I need Bugbear AI route editor.

So Andrei, would the easy cheat be turning off the red circle indicator? Also I think players would want this as a mod so they can free roam the track maps without having the red circle pop up.



Here a link to my current track file if you want take a look at it Andrei or any lurkers out there. It in a \mods folder format, can just drop it into your \mods folder.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/i3garbdao7pofnf/valer_custom_tarmac3.7z

Making track points manually is hard think to do especially without way to check if it works out.

If you don't mind Ai drives making sudden sharp turns, spline points/sectors could be reduced to very minimum. For example one in beginning of straight and one in end.
And something like just 2 checkpoints could work out. Sectors already make sure you can't shortcut.

Edit:

Check out the : [TOOL] Buggy PHP ai route visualizer 

It's my tool very much work in progress, but could let you visualize the ai_route.scne sectors after edits in bagedit. Unfortunately it don't work with valer.scne

Edit:

Check out the : [TOOL] Buggy PHP ai route visualizer 

It's my tool very much work in progress, but could let you visualize the ai_route.scne sectors after edits in bagedit. Unfortunately it don't work with valer.scne

I was just going ask you that since the Tarmac 3 track does not have a separate ai_route.scne file. Everything is in the valer.scne track file. The startpoints, splines\sectors and the checkpoints.

Does Bugbear need to make 2 separate track files to help us out with the modding of custom tracks. One track file that has the track mesh and objects ( valer.scne ) and a second track file that has all 3: startpoints, splines\sectors and the checkpoints in the file?



Ya Mazay, this tool definitely would of help me with the gokart spline points\sectors to see where I'm screwing up when I made the gap bigger between Left and Right spline points.

Any chance you get tool to show checkpoints too?? 

Making track points manually is hard think to do especially without way to check if it works out.

If you don't mind Ai drives making sudden sharp turns, spline points/sectors could be reduced to very minimum. For example one in beginning of straight and one in end.
And something like just 2 checkpoints could work out. Sectors already make sure you can't shortcut.

Ya that kinda how my spline points\stectors are now on the gokart track now. I think the AI are going make mess of the turns when I redo the startpoints.

"And something like just 2 checkpoints could work out. Sectors already make sure you can't shortcut."

Have disagree with you here Mazay. The Sector points won't stop a player from short-cutting your track, it will just trigger the red circle, saying you are off the track where the Sector points say you suppose to be.

A track need at least 2 checkpoints for track to work in-game. A start\finish checkpoint and a second checkpoint\gate for car to travel through and then head back to the finish line. Unless race is 1 lap, then second checkpoint becomes the finish line. Like a drag strip track. ( point A to point B track )

With the AI and spline route points, you could use just 2 checkpoints on any track. The checkpoints are there for the real players so they don't cheat your track big time.  Take an oval 1 track, you only need 2 checkpoints if there a solid wall or railings to stop players for cheating the track.




Now put the oval track out on Tarmac 3 with no barrier walls, just open space, a player can cheat a 2 checkpoint track. Need at least 4 checkpoints to keep player honest. 



You guys ready for a figure 8 track like this one?



Also checkpoints make sure players take a hairpin turn the direction ( from the left or right ) track designer want player to do.

Just look at the hairpin turn on Sandpit one. A real world player can take the hairpin turn from the left or right direction, because there only 1 checkpoint at the hairpin. But the AI always take the hairpin from the left side because that what the spline points tell the AI to do.

With just the one checkpoint on the Sandpit hairpin turn, if I get turn around ( after crossing the top of the turn ) 180 degrees, I can just keep going back the other direction I just came, since Wreckfest already counted my car pass through the hairpin checkpoint.

"Sectors already make sure you can't shortcut."

Have disagree with you here Mazay. The Sector points won't stop a player from short-cutting your track, it will just trigger the red circle, saying you are off the track where the Sector points say you suppose to be.

In  my experience that just by editing sectors you can skip checkpoints and laptimes still count with no problem. I wonder are checkpoints infinite in width, ir is passing throug them not required at all?

However if you drive out of track, you have to drive back to previous checkpoint. Also if you reset, your car reset to checkpoints.

Does Bugbear need to make 2 separate track files to help us out with the modding of custom tracks. One track file that has the track mesh and objects ( valer.scne ) and a second track file that has all 3: startpoints, splines\sectors and the checkpoints in the file?

The could be helpful to reduce size of mod if only checkpoints are modified, but we can work around it.

First delete all checkpoints and sectors points in bagedit. Then copy ai_route.scne of some other map and load it the same way you load objects in bagedit.
This could also make it to work with my buggy tool.

Any chance you get tool to show checkpoints too?? 

Probably it's only small fix needed.

"Sectors already make sure you can't shortcut."

Have disagree with you here Mazay. The Sector points won't stop a player from short-cutting your track, it will just trigger the red circle, saying you are off the track where the Sector points say you suppose to be.

In  my experience that just by editing sectors you can skip checkpoints and laptimes still count with no problem. I wonder are checkpoints infinite in width, ir is passing throug them not required at all?

However if you drive out of track, you have to drive back to previous checkpoint. Also if you reset, your car reset to checkpoints.

In checking some Tarmac 3 checkpoints, they are wide "gates".

I just did a test on Sandpit 1, route 1 heading to the hairpin turn.

Here I try and shortcut the first track turn and trigger the red circle, I reset car and I end up back on the track where I started. If I don't reset car and continue on around the hairpin and finish the rest of the track, red circle does not go away until I get back to the finish line where I started.





Here I'm past the the first turn and I go off-road and trigger the red circle. If keep driving back to the track, red circle will disappear because I have not cheated a checkpoint point.





Here I go off-road and trigger the red circle and then reset the car. Car get reset back to where I left the track, not back to the where the first checkpoint is at the first turn.








If you go wide of the AI sector points or cheat a checkpoint, that going trigger the red circle. If you drive back to the track and circle go away, you lap still going to count. If circle does not go away, it mean you cheated or miss a checkpoint and need to reset your car to get lap to count.

Back in Flatout 1, Bugbear used a resetmap that trigger a red arrow. The red arow would stay on screen until you went all away around the track and back to where you trigger the red arrow and then red arrow would disappear. And your lap would count if you did not cheat a checkpoint.

But if red arrow is showing ( because you took a "shortcut" through some trees ) and you roll your car onto your roof and have to reset car, then your car get reset back to where your car triggered the red arrow. Now your shortcut turns into a bad shortcut and you loose the race. I had this happen a few tines racing Flatout 1 online. 



Here what a resetmap look like in Flatout 1. If car touches the black area of map, it would trigger the red arrow in Flatout 1. Need to keep car in the white area, where the track suppose to be.



I had fun doing a resetmap for my Bunker Hill Obstacle course:





http://www.mediafire.com/download/ntjyywmztjm/FlatOut-1-Bunker-Hill-Havoc-OC.mpg


It look like now the AI route sectors work as the resetmap now in Wreckfest.

But in Flatout 1 and 2, we made resetmap white. This got rid of red arrow and then we could free roam a track map without triggering the red arrow. In Wreckfest, how we going get rid of red circle to make tracks free roaming?

What is nice with BagEdit is copy paste. You can copy Airoutes or Startpoints or Checkpoints into other files very easily. Just check 0 and 1 entries for sub scne files, like conflicting AI routes or start points.

Tested last night. Did "Small Stadium" demo inside the Inner Oval track.

Added Figure 8 checkpoints startpoints and route to the Oval track to race on the inside. It worked, but the path was rotated, not lined up with the center of the oval, so AI ran into the walls. I was able to complete laps.

No good visual way to edit.

How was small stadium inner oval? I would like to try it... Also, if we could get the mud from the mudpit thrown in the small stadium, I would absolutely love that if possible... That or just give me a small section of the flat stuff on the upper level of the mudpit