Author Topic: Update 2016-07-29  (Read 23843 times)

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
While I was at the BTCC, I noticed that people I race with complained that the cars slide everywhere, even on a limited slip diff, as soon as I got back, I looked at the new aero files, and it appear that instead of adding downforce to the cars, they've actually added lift, meaning the faster you go, the less grip you have, and if you manage to go fast enough, you could make the car fly, not sure if this was a simple mistake, but it's on every car, I'll update my build 6 settings mod to incorporate the new car, but use the opposite settings of lift for the cars so that BB's aero settings actually work decently, producing downforce from the splitters and spoilers, instead of lift
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
Uploaded a fixed aero mod to the workshop as a temporary fix, it seems like BB made a mistake with the values as the euro1 has more rear lift than the front, which is odd as it's a rear engined car so more weight would be at the back than the front, yet when the "-" sign is added before the values to make the car have downforce it makes sense as the rear has more downforce than the front so the rear seems heavier
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

The Very End

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Interesting findings. With the tweaks, how does it perform on ground? Is it more slidy, and what about the jumps?

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
On the ground the car feels more planted and ready to turn, they still jump fine and have slightly less understeer, and can turn corners when not accelerating and at a reasonable speed for the corner, but you can kick the rear out if you're a bit too hard on the throttle in a corner and can understeer if you go too fast for a corner but the understeer speed is a bit higher
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

Janne Suur-Näkki

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Having some front lift is actually typical for most road cars, especially the old ones our game has. Modern race cars use all sorts of aerodynamic devices like inverted wings to combat that.

World of Bay, Mixed 3 (like Sandpit 3 before it) was very much inspired by the old FlatOut tracks.

Purple, I believe that that barn bridge is a very old asset that was created back when we were prototyping with the very first tracks and somehow it just never got used since.

FalconXY, you mean a game mode in which you get points only for spinning the other car around? Weren't you still supposed to win the race, though? It's been awhile since I last played Destruction Derby. Anyway, we can actually already detect when someone is spun around so it's coming at some point, just needs some polish (it's a bit buggy for now).

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 10:20:57 AM by Janne Suur-Näkki »

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
Janne, that still doesn't explain why the EU1 has more rear lift than front lift considering more weight should be at the rear, when I saw that value in BagEdit I was pretty certain that it was a simple error made by the team that wasn't noticed before releasing the update, Brian also commented on how with the build 6 mod and the "corrected" aero mod he could drive the car faster than currently and also drive it more naturally as with the current lift settings the car doesn't want to stop sliding coming out of a turn so you can't put power down, and when you do, even in a straight line, the car always wants to slide making small adjustments on a straight hard to do as it results in the car getting way too slidy.

Of course, we want to help make the game better and I am trying to bring attention to this error
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

The Very End

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Having some front lift is actually typical for most road cars, especially the old ones our game has. Modern race cars use all sorts of aerodynamic devices like inverted wings to combat that.

World of Bay, Mixed 3 (like Sandpit 3 before it) was very much inspired by the old FlatOut tracks.

Purple, I believe that that barn bridge is a very old asset that was created back when we were prototyping with the very first tracks and somehow it just never got used since.

FalconXY, you mean a game mode in which you get points only for spinning the other car around? Weren't you still supposed to win the race, though? It's been awhile since I last played Destruction Derby. Anyway, we can actually already detect when someone is spun around so it's coming at some point, just needs some polish (it's a bit buggy for now).

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

Ideally I think you should have two kind of races in Wreckfest, "Banger Race" and "Race". Race is, well as name, just a race, while Banger Race should be all about the points through the event. At same time you get points for finishing / doing laps to encounter people to try moving forward. Still, most of the points would be given for spinning, damaging, rolling or wrecking your oponents.

As for DD it was points for top places I think, aswell as spinning cars and wrecking them. They split the race modes in two section, one for wrecking one for racing.

In my opinion that would be better also on mulitplayer part. If you join a banger race server everyone would know that the aim was to destroy everything on the way to the goal, while in racing servers it would be the clean driving.

Janne Suur-Näkki

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PsychOXRat, I understand and I'm definitely not trying to say you're wrong, just trying to explain why something is like it is. I haven't looked at the values but the EU1 having more rear lift than front lift does sound odd. It might be a simple mistake or an oversight that was left there by accident, while tuning the cars we often try out different setups to see how the car responds in different situations.

Thanks for taking a look at this.

PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
Ok, tonight a few of us are going to stress test the version I made on each car and diff setup, as somehow the cars are drifiting with a limited slip diff on them, and some saying that the locked diff made the car more stable to drive, when I made the first version of my build 6 mod I came across this as I had zeroed out the aero so none affected the car and found that the LSD liked to slide out more as it had less grip, so adding lift to the cars would make that issue worse, as for the opposite values of the current build's aero, they're around the same area as the build 6 mod so they behave nicely and normally, and most cars have different aero values which varies what cars are better where, and also explains why the EU3 is a fast car now as it has the least lift on it at 0.025
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

BigPoppa_C

  • Posts: 65
PsychOXRat, I understand and I'm definitely not trying to say you're wrong, just trying to explain why something is like it is. I haven't looked at the values but the EU1 having more rear lift than front lift does sound odd. It might be a simple mistake or an oversight that was left there by accident, while tuning the cars we often try out different setups to see how the car responds in different situations.

Thanks for taking a look at this.

I know you've said cars from that era have lift at the front, but is there any plans to include additional aero parts that have a set lift/down force value. I don't' particularly enjoy the feeling of my car 'floating' through a corner at 145Kph and feeling helpless to stop it.

RickyB

  • Posts: 753
Really having fun with the car-to-car collisions now. Nice update. Cool tools :) Just some thoughts...

Health System: Do I understand this right, that, if the cars are weak (critical damage), they get damaged easier? Seems a little.. well, unfair? It's not an advantage to have critical damage, so why punish the already hurt player even more? That's brutal, man ;). Bigger jumps still lower the healthbar a little bit too much for my taste.

Handling: With keyboard, cars tend to get twitchy when trying to countersteer. I had to switch to full stability control to avoid cursing on every corner. First impression was - "I might have to switch to analog input." (=buy a wheel?). But getting used to it.. maybe. Hopefully.
The cars feel pretty slippery/slidey, but at the same time the tires feel very responsive. For the tires to be that responsive, there seems to be good traction, but when I start to slide that easy, I wonder - where did all the traction go? Not sure, maybe I'm wrong. Gets me confused a bit. Maybe that's how it is in reality.

Cameras: I personaly like the higher bumper cam, but I totally can understand that others may feel frustrated or even angry. There's no need to take the low bumper cams away. You could have added the higher bumper cam as an addition or instead of the second chase cam. You could add even more cams, but there's no need to take stuff away, that people may have become fond of. (happened before)
What I'd like to see: All cameras in the menu with checkboxes to deactivate certain cameras from the camera cycle. Who needs 2 almost identical chase cams? ;) The new FOV change... hmm meh. An option to deactivate the FOV change in the menu would be appreciated. I know there already is a mod.

Finally, there's something strange in the neighborhood... on the new mixed 3 track.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:31:50 PM by RickyBøbby »

The Very End

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Yeah the health bar is very unfair at the moment. Not only do the cars take damage easier if they are on low health, but when they recieve damage it's more aswell. Brutal :p Beeing under 30% HP makes you a natural target as even the smallest bumps will do sever damage to you.
I changed it to be the same regardless of your healh, and personally I think that is fair.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 04:58:44 PM by The Very End »

St. Jimmy

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PsychOXRat, I understand and I'm definitely not trying to say you're wrong, just trying to explain why something is like it is. I haven't looked at the values but the EU1 having more rear lift than front lift does sound odd. It might be a simple mistake or an oversight that was left there by accident, while tuning the cars we often try out different setups to see how the car responds in different situations.

Thanks for taking a look at this.

There's maybe a bug or problem in your physics. Disable every aero stuff and do the Sandpit1 Route 2 jump. I noticed that Euro 1 (rear weighted car) starts to rotate front. It should be the total opposite.

That problem is causing that you need to have more lift in the back in front engined cars and vice versa or the jumps go badly wrong with front engined cars.


^ I might have talked too early about that. Was testing things at night and I didn't think enough to eliminate everything in count...


Realistically older cars have lift in the front and downforce in the back. Now you've set lift in both front and back. It feels just bad because back shouldn't really have lift...

Also aero affects way too much in the airtime. Setting the Car Aero Drag Scale In Air from the physics much lower helps the situation. It's currently set at 1. I tried it with 0.2 and lift and downforce didn't have too much effect anymore in the airtime. Jumps were still the same.

//Edited heavily. I might have talked too early about that weight ratio rotation. It could actually be OK. It's likely all related to the aero that has too much of an effect in air time.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 05:25:50 PM by St. Jimmy »
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PsychOXRat

  • Posts: 339
I may have found an interesting thing:



Only on the AM1, only about the radiator, could this mean BB is bringing damage that affects performance?
System Specs: Intel i7-7700K CPU, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GTX970 from GALAX

The Very End

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Not sure if I like that or not. If the system affects the way the car behaves too much, it will lead to a user uproar. Wreckfest is the name, but I feel that too much simulation of mechanical issues will just make this game "one of those mediocre simulators". It's allready a hard competition for Sim players, not sure if there is a marked for another one.

Can we please have an identity of the game? Is it a simulator, or is it a wrecking game? I am all into game modes that support all types of races, but if it is mandatory to keep on a watch for mechanical damage I feel the name on the label is very misleading.

Also remember that while mechanical damage is fun, it can be very tiresome aswell. Hit one tyre in turn one? Well too bad, your car will perform xx% worse and you will have to counter steer to the right for the rest of the race.
As said, make it at least an optional game mode for damage that effects handling worthnody.