Author Topic: Bugbear has come a long way...  (Read 1906 times)

Anarchy_Blues

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Too bad the direction has only been downward. If they could sink any lower than this we'd be fueling our cars with Bugbear Petrol.

It's been three years since Bugbear promised us a spiritual successor to Flatout. And while me and a lot of other people were quite impressed with the initial build, it never really evolved past that point. What little magic the first build had was quickly washed away by a supposed "engine overhaul" that did nothing but literally make the game run worse, play worse and (some would argue) even look worse. Updates consisted of bread crumbs after that. A new car here, a new (incomplete) track there, some broken multiplayer, a few physics tweaks that somehow managed to make worse even more so, and that's about it. For three years, and not only has the game not left pre-alpha yet and doesn't come close to holding a candle to Flatout, but now I find out they're actually splitting the project in two and selling the pieces separately, at full price each. Wonderful.

Now this is hardly the biggest screw-job a game company has ever pulled, although it definitely makes the top five. But damn if I ever expected that company to be Bugbear. Though I guess I should've seen it coming, I mean the signs were obvious. The laughable PR, the forum censorship, the paid reviews and all that...

I'm surprised there isn't any outrage about this. Bugbear must've actually managed to either censor or alienate their original fanbase completely. Or hell, maybe it's just me. Maybe people like getting screwed over. Frankly, after No Man's Sky, that wouldn't surprise me.

Purple44

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I got hooked on Flatout back in August 2005 when I first played the Flatout 1 demo and been hooked ever since. So I guess I'm one them original Flatout fans.

Bugbear has said back in the beginning they wanted make their dream game without a publisher interfering and let the Flatout community help shape Next Car Game.

That what I sign up for, let Bugbear make their dream game and see what we get. And when they stray to far, like when Build #7 was too simy, I let them know.

I have gotten to race Wreckfest online for over 2 years now and have had many, many, many great, fun races and derbys with 10-24 players.  :D :D :D :D  I could never do 10-24 players with Flatout online. ( we did try to get Flatout 1 to 12 player online, but was not stable ).









So no outrage here. Have had some concerns at times over the last couple of years.

Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

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Zebulon55

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It's been three years since Bugbear promised us a spiritual successor to Flatout. ...
... I find out they're actually splitting the project in two and selling the pieces separately, at full price each. Wonderful.


I Joined early access in November 2013.  I was a fan of Flatout, and more so of Flatout 2. I even had high hopes for Flatout C & D that Bugbear didn't have a hand in making.(speaking of getting screwed over... that's all I'll say about that).
They said long ago that the ragdoll mini games were not to be a part of Wreckfest, so they haven't really split the game in two...


I'm surprised there isn't any outrage about this. Bugbear must've actually managed to either censor or alienate their original fanbase completely. Or hell, maybe it's just me. Maybe people like getting screwed over. Frankly, after No Man's Sky, that wouldn't surprise me.

I don't feel that I've been screwed over.  We've had frustratingly long waits with no communication, and a financial solvency scare or two, and some less popular feature changes, but also some fun times playing the various builds  and mods online.  I described the development process as a roller-coaster ride in a long ago post, and that is what it has been. Ups and downs. I'm still glad I took part in it.

With over 500 hours in the game for my 50 dollar master blaster membership, I've got my money's worth - that's more time in one game than most of the complete games I have bought over the years, and some of those I've played very little.

I guess it's all in how you look at it. I'm looking at it to be a successful release next spring/summer.   8)


Anarchy_Blues

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I got hooked on Flatout back in August 2005 when I first played the Flatout 1 demo and been hooked ever since. So I guess I'm one them original Flatout fans.

I remember you. There's a difference between fan and fanboy. Just saying.

Bugbear has said back in the beginning they wanted make their dream game without a publisher interfering and let the Flatout community help shape Next Car Game.

In other words nobody to keep them in check and whip them into shape when they lag behind. As evil as they might seem, publishers serve a purpose.

Anyway that gameplay doesn't look nearly as fun as you're making it sound. And next to Flatout it looks... well, flatout boring (no pun intended). Not to mention it's not aging well, despite running worse than Mafia III.

They said long ago that the ragdoll mini games were not to be a part of Wreckfest, so they haven't really split the game in two...

That doesn't really change anything. Flatout had both, for all I know they probably said it wouldn't be part of Wreckfest precisely because they had it planned for a different game. More importantly they picked up a second project while the first was still in alpha, despite admitting that they had already bitten off more than they could chew.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:29:08 AM by Anarchy_Blues »

St. Jimmy

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Have you played the Retro Demo that they gave in the Kickstarter campaign? WreckFest feels like a spiritual successor of that game. It also reminds a lot of Rally Trophy which is much more serious game. FlatOut could've been very different game without publisher's influence.

WreckFest is said to be the game they always wanted to make and I believe they want to make it bit more serious than the FlatOut was. We can found the game and give feedback but in the end it's their vision. We can shape it but not totally change it.

I'm generally happy with the direction. Only big thing I'm not liking is the Sandpit changes. There are couple cool things in the new one but the old one was just much better.
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TheEngiGuy

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Yes, people who expected this to be a Flatout game got screwed over.

Devin

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Yes, people who expected this to be a Flatout game got screwed over.
Post of the day. They clearly said this is not going to be the next FlatOut. Like stated above: There's a difference between fan and fanboy, and in that case those "flatout fanboys" clearly fail to see that.

Purple for example is not a fanboy. He just likes both games which is perfectly acceptable, so do I.

Also, I would never say that Wreckfest is "a bad game" simply because it lacks the fast-paced gameplay of Flatout. I actually came here because of Flatout and I stayed here because I loved Wreckfest much more.
Please never call a game bad again just because it's not your kind of game. Many people love this game for a good reason.

And also don't even get started on the whole "they're making a second game even when their first game is not finished" topic. There's several good reasons for that, one of them being that they promised that even before Wreckfest was released. Another one is that Stuntfest is essentially a more game-like version of the Sneak Peek 2.0 and even comes with an editor, so in a way exactly what people always wanted. It's very cheap too, so no reason to complain there. Wreckfest on the other hand is racing, much different from Stuntfest. They couldn't have possibly become the same game. And no, "it's running on the same engine" doesn't make it the same game either. Or would you consider Rocket League the same game as Unreal Tournament? Yeah, I guessed so, you wouldn't.
It also doesn't slow down development at all and in fact speeds it up because everything they learn from Stuntfest can be used directly in Wreckfest and help it become better, now that it's finally released it'll even cost them much less time than it might have done before. And like they said, it gained them an investor, which would obviously speed things up even more.

I made this as clear as possible. If you don't like the game, then simply don't buy it. But if you do buy it then please don't complain on the forums and don't just spread your negativity about this game everywhere. Fine, we get it, you feel screwed over, but we don't and we want to keep it that way.
Do you expect Bugbear to turn this game into Flatout 4 just because of your rant? That won't happen, even if they wanted to. So what other point is there? Oh right, hurting them even more, possibly scaring away interested people so that Bugbear can't sell the game as much anymore so that development is stopped altogether? Why would you do such a thing? Just ignore the game if you don't like it, or do you search through steam and do the same thing for every single game you don't like? Well good luck, that's a full-time job.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 03:36:23 PM by Devin »

Cornkid

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Yes, people who expected this to be a Flatout game got screwed over.
Post of the day. They clearly said this is not going to be the next FlatOut. Like stated above: There's a difference between fan and fanboy, and in that case those "flatout fanboys" clearly fail to see that.

Purple for example is not a fanboy. He just likes both games which is perfectly acceptable, so do I.

Also, I would never say that Wreckfest is "a bad game" simply because it lacks the fast-paced gameplay of Flatout. I actually came here because of Flatout and I stayed here because I loved Wreckfest much more.
Please never call a game bad again just because it's not your kind of game. Many people love this game for a good reason.

And also don't even get started on the whole "they're making a second game even when their first game is not finished" topic. There's several good reasons for that, one of them being that they promised that even before Wreckfest was released. Another one is that Stuntfest is essentially a more game-like version of the Sneak Peek 2.0 and even comes with an editor, so in a way exactly what people always wanted. It's very cheap too, so no reason to complain there. Wreckfest on the other hand is racing, much different from Stuntfest. They couldn't have possibly become the same game. And no, "it's running on the same engine" doesn't make it the same game either. Or would you consider Rocket League the same game as Unreal Tournament? Yeah, I guessed so, you wouldn't.
It also doesn't slow down development at all and in fact speeds it up because everything they learn from Stuntfest can be used directly in Wreckfest and help it become better, now that it's finally released it'll even cost them much less time than it might have done before. And like they said, it gained them an investor, which would obviously speed things up even more.

I made this as clear as possible. If you don't like the game, then simply don't buy it. But if you do buy it then please don't complain on the forums and don't just spread your negativity about this game everywhere. Fine, we get it, you feel screwed over, but we don't and we want to keep it that way.
Do you expect Bugbear to turn this game into Flatout 4 just because of your rant? That won't happen, even if they wanted to. So what other point is there? Oh right, hurting them even more, possibly scaring away interested people so that Bugbear can't sell the game as much anymore so that development is stopped altogether? Why would you do such a thing? Just ignore the game if you don't like it, or do you search through steam and do the same thing for every single game you don't like? Well good luck, that's a full-time job.

When I read Engi's post I saw the irony, he was referring to anyone that expected a flatout game from a stuntfest forum, would be wrong.

Maybe it was just me, maybe he needs to add (irony) in future before he uses it.

Could be wrong, but lets be honest he also falls in the mainly positive feedback section, so surprised you took the type so much, which I never really read , I could be wrong though ;)

Devin

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When I read Engi's post I saw the irony, he was referring to anyone that expected a flatout game from a stuntfest forum, would be wrong.

Maybe it was just me, maybe he needs to add (irony) in future before he uses it.

Could be wrong, but lets be honest he also falls in the mainly positive feedback section, so surprised you took the type so much, which I never really read , I could be wrong though ;)
Yeah that is what I expected too I guess :P

My post was about such negative threads in general and mainly directed at OP

Cornkid

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When I read Engi's post I saw the irony, he was referring to anyone that expected a flatout game from a stuntfest forum, would be wrong.

Maybe it was just me, maybe he needs to add (irony) in future before he uses it.

Could be wrong, but lets be honest he also falls in the mainly positive feedback section, so surprised you took the type so much, which I never really read , I could be wrong though ;)
Yeah that is what I expected too I guess :P

My post was about such negative threads in general and mainly directed at OP

AAAh, I get where you were coming from about negative posts, I've made a few myself.

I thought youre wrath was directed at Engi, which struck me as odd.

I wont lower the tone with my thoughts about devs/wreckfest/stuntfest as its a good read, but off topic I guess ;)

Back on topic, stuntfest looks worth a laugh if its free, cant say I will be buying it , its defo not a flatout clone

Anarchy_Blues

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Have you played the Retro Demo that they gave in the Kickstarter campaign? WreckFest feels like a spiritual successor of that game. It also reminds a lot of Rally Trophy which is much more serious game. FlatOut could've been very different game without publisher's influence.
As evil as they might seem, publishers serve a purpose.

I rest my case?

WreckFest is said to be the game they always wanted to make and I believe they want to make it bit more serious than the FlatOut was. We can found the game and give feedback but in the end it's their vision. We can shape it but not totally change it.

That's not what this is about. They had a different vision? Fair enough. But they should have advertised it as such instead of lying about the game being even remotely similar to Flatout and shamelessly roping Flatout fans into buying it. Or Destruction Derby fans for that matter. Bugbear is really not that different from Hello Games in that regard.

Yes, people who expected this to be a Flatout game got screwed over.
Post of the day. They clearly said this is not going to be the next FlatOut.

That's... flatout false (again, no pun intended). The game was advertised as a spiritual successor to Flatout and Destruction Derby. Yet the only similarities between them is that they all have cars and they crash.

Also, I would never say that Wreckfest is "a bad game" simply because it lacks the fast-paced gameplay of Flatout. I actually came here because of Flatout and I stayed here because I loved Wreckfest much more.
Please never call a game bad again just because it's not your kind of game. Many people love this game for a good reason.

I'm not. I'm calling it a bad game because it genuinely is a bad game.

Wreckfest does appeal to me. As I mentioned in the OP, I actually liked the first build quite a lot, the sneak peek as well. But I can't ignore the fact that after that initial release, literally every single update made the game worse and worse. And it's not just gameplay problems, back when the first build was released I had a GTX 550 Ti, and the game ran perfectly on it. Now I have a GTX 970 and the game is barely playable, and it actually looks worse than it did before.

If Wreckfest were at least a good quality game I could forgive the fact that Bugbear mislead us into buying it. But it just isn't, it's nowhere near that. In fact, in that regard it's closer to Flatout 3 than anything Bugbear ever made.

And also don't even get started on the whole "they're making a second game even when their first game is not finished" topic. There's several good reasons for that, one of them being that they promised that even before Wreckfest was released. Another one is that Stuntfest is essentially a more game-like version of the Sneak Peek 2.0 and even comes with an editor, so in a way exactly what people always wanted. It's very cheap too, so no reason to complain there. Wreckfest on the other hand is racing, much different from Stuntfest. They couldn't have possibly become the same game. And no, "it's running on the same engine" doesn't make it the same game either. Or would you consider Rocket League the same game as Unreal Tournament? Yeah, I guessed so, you wouldn't.
It also doesn't slow down development at all and in fact speeds it up because everything they learn from Stuntfest can be used directly in Wreckfest and help it become better, now that it's finally released it'll even cost them much less time than it might have done before. And like they said, it gained them an investor, which would obviously speed things up even more.

Nope. The fact that it is the same game makes it the same game. Or would you consider Minecraft Alpha and Minecraft Beta two different games? Didn't think so.

The problem is they bit off more than they could chew. They decided to try and reinvent the wheel, first by making a realistic banger racing simulator instead of sticking with the formula they were familiar with and was proven to work, they mislead their fans into thinking they're buying something completely different, and last but not least they decided to re-write the engine not long after the initial release because reasons.

I made this as clear as possible. If you don't like the game, then simply don't buy it. But if you do buy it then please don't complain on the forums and don't just spread your negativity about this game everywhere. Fine, we get it, you feel screwed over, but we don't and we want to keep it that way.
Do you expect Bugbear to turn this game into Flatout 4 just because of your rant? That won't happen, even if they wanted to. So what other point is there? Oh right, hurting them even more, possibly scaring away interested people so that Bugbear can't sell the game as much anymore so that development is stopped altogether? Why would you do such a thing? Just ignore the game if you don't like it, or do you search through steam and do the same thing for every single game you don't like? Well good luck, that's a full-time job.

Gladly. If they can give me a full refund I'll pretend Next Car Game never existed, but we both know that's never going to happen. As for expectations, most I can expect from Bugbear nowadays is for them to file for chapter 11. Morally they're already bankrupt so I don't really see what other expectations I could have.

Maybe your standards are low enough so that you consider a game like this to be right on the money. But me? I'm not like that. I've yet to receive my 40 Euros worth of entertainment. The least Bugbear can do is take the punch.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:27:07 PM by Anarchy_Blues »

Devin

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That's not what this is about. They had a different vision? Fair enough. But they should have advertised it as such instead of lying about the game being even remotely similar to Flatout and shamelessly roping Flatout fans into buying it. Or Destruction Derby fans for that matter. Bugbear is really not that different from Hello Games in that regard.

That's... flatout false (again, no pun intended). The game was advertised as a spiritual successor to Flatout and Destruction Derby. Yet the only similarities between them is that they all have cars and they crash.
When have they ever done that? I bought the game knowing that it wasn't even remotely like FlatOut. I don't just assume such things for no reason
I'm not. I'm calling it a bad game because it genuinely is a bad game.

Wreckfest does appeal to me. As I mentioned in the OP, I actually liked the first build quite a lot, the sneak peek as well. But I can't ignore the fact that after that initial release, literally every single update made the game worse and worse. And it's not just gameplay problems, back when the first build was released I had a GTX 550 Ti, and the game ran perfectly on it. Now I have a GTX 970 and the game is barely playable, and it actually looks worse than it did before.

If Wreckfest were at least a good quality game I could forgive the fact that Bugbear mislead us into buying it. But it just isn't, it's nowhere near that. In fact, in that regard it's closer to Flatout 3 than anything Bugbear ever made.
Sorry, but it's definitely you and not the game. When it was released, my old GTX 470 could handle it on close to max settings. Guess which settings it can handle in the current version? Unless there's more vegetation on a track (like Tarmac 1), then FPS can get a little lower than they used to. But it looks much sharper and better overall now.

Last time someone had such problems they plugged their GPU into a PCIe x4 slot. I suggest you check that. On my new 970 the game never drops below 60fps even on ultra settings and 24 cars on screen.

Nope. The fact that it is the same game makes it the same game. Or would you consider Minecraft Alpha and Minecraft Beta two different games? Didn't think so.

The problem is they bit off more than they could chew. They decided to try and reinvent the wheel, first by making a realistic banger racing simulator instead of sticking with the formula they were familiar with and was proven to work, they mislead their fans into thinking they're buying something completely different, and last but not least they decided to re-write the engine not long after the initial release because reasons.
Minecraft is Minecraft. Obviously. You're comparing an earlier version to a later one. Of course it's still the same game. But the PS2 game Stuntman is in fact NOT the same game as the PS2 game Driv3r, even though the same guys made it in the same engine and even with the same assets. In fact, while Stuntman is considered a completely unique game, Driv3r is considered something like GTA. Totally the same game obviously.

I think you don't understand the reason they've made Wreckfest a simulation-like game. Even their non-simulation physics from the first 6 builds was closer to realistic than most other racing games ever could be. It was their decision from the very beginning, as you could see in the early demo they've released and even more in the first sneak peek. If they only wanted to make games just for the pure amount of sales, they would've gone for an FPS and not for a racing game in the first place. I am happy that Wreckfest exists because it fills a hole in terms or racing that no other game, not even with mods, could fill. I've always wanted cheap rusty but sort of powerful realistic folk-race like racing on PC, ever since FlatOut 1 came out, and Wreckfest finally delivered. People are saying "why do the cheap stuff in the game if you could also do the kind of racing that people can't afford in real life?"... well I can't afford folk racing because I simply can't fly to finland once a month just for that. So the game is the obvious alternative here. I even do other racing in sims even though I do it in real life too, but I can play sims whenever I want while real-life racing not only costs money, but also time. This makes Wreckfest one of my most favourite games of all time and as long as the matchmaker allows me to play online, I gladly will every now and then.

And why don't you turn things around and go to Activision and ask them why they didn't make another flatout and instead decided to stick to the old Call of Duty crap that nobody wants anymore? Same thing here. Bugbear wasn't founded to produce just FlatOuts. Like Nintendo didn't release 2D mario games once a year and in fact took a break from that for more than 10 years, Bugbear can also make some other games before even considering a new FlatOut-like game before.

Gladly. If they can give me a full refund I'll pretend Next Car Game never existed, but we both know that's never going to happen. As for expectations, most I can expect from Bugbear nowadays is for them to file for chapter 11. Morally they're already bankrupt so I don't really see what other expectations I could have.
And ANOTHER one of those people who don't understand how refunds work. If you go buy a toaster and use it for two months and suddenly decide that you'd rather invest the money into a different toaster, you can't just bring it back and expect a full refund. Same with games. Think about it BEFORE buying and extensively playing them. Steam's refund option handles this. If it didn't for you, then you obviously owned or played the game for too long. And no one but you is to blame for that.

Also, like I said before, if you don't care about the game, piss off. Why would you want them to become bankrupt? You gain absolutely NOTHING from it. Even worse, you wish for them to lose their job and for the people who like the game to lose the game too. So why can't you just shut up and ignore the game if you don't like it? I'm seriously thinking about closing this thread because what you're doing here is just attacking a developer and a community for absolutely no reason and there's no place for that crap on the internet. If you want to spread crap, please keep it on steam where the rest of the poisonous people are.
Maybe your standards are low enough so that you consider a game like this to be right on the money. But me? I'm not like that. I've yet to receive my 40 Euros worth of entertainment. The least Bugbear can do is take the punch.
Pro tip: Game costs 19.99$. If you paid 40, then you obviously either didn't even inform yourself about what kind of game you bought or you gave them more than the base and bought the full-time wrecker or something, making the decision to knowinly pay more than you had to. Which would mean this was your own decision. Not theirs. If you're unsure, don't just spend more money and then complain about having spent too much. I can't see how many hours you've played but if it's more than 5, you already got more out of that money than most AAA games could possibly ever give you. So please stop trying to make up reasons to complain publicly about Bugbear when they never scammed you, screwed you over or whatever it is you're trying to make us think.

Purple44

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WreckFest is said to be the game they always wanted to make and I believe they want to make it bit more serious than the FlatOut was. We can found the game and give feedback but in the end it's their vision. We can shape it but not totally change it.


That's not what this is about. They had a different vision? Fair enough. But they should have advertised it as such instead of lying about the game being even remotely similar to Flatout and shamelessly roping Flatout fans into buying it. Or Destruction Derby fans for that matter. Bugbear is really not that different from Hello Games in that regard.



Have to disagree with you when you say this, "lying about the game being even remotely similar to Flatout"

When I saw this video I said this:

cool video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fKfEniMa0Y


Real life Flatout racing!! nice!  :D

Would like to see the station wagon and a bug in the NCG, please.







Flatout 1 is my favorite version of Flatout ( Flatout 2 was great for modding ), Flatout to me is folk racing, I love this kind of rough and tumble racing. Gravel and Mixed 1 are not Flatout like tracks? The cars don't remind you of the Flatout 1 cars?





Flatout Joint, where the mods were.

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BrianUK

I made this as clear as possible. If you don't like the game, then simply don't buy it. But if you do buy it then please don't complain on the forums and don't just spread your negativity about this game everywhere. Fine, we get it, you feel screwed over, but we don't and we want to keep it that way.
Do you expect Bugbear to turn this game into Flatout 4 just because of your rant? That won't happen, even if they wanted to. So what other point is there? Oh right, hurting them even more, possibly scaring away interested people so that Bugbear can't sell the game as much anymore so that development is stopped altogether? Why would you do such a thing? Just ignore the game if you don't like it, or do you search through steam and do the same thing for every single game you don't like? Well good luck, that's a full-time job.

The absurdity of this part of your post is absolutely astounding in the extreme. Buying the game allows you to provide feedback, negative or positive, and you have no power to stop that. Until it just becomees outright abusive, you have to sit there and watch. You can't go around telling people who invested in this project that they can't say anything if it's negative. Negative feedback is how you learn, how you grow. If everyone just licks your butthole every day, you go along thinking everything you do is 100% correct, even if it's not. I don't get why you suddenly feel the need to white knight so hard, but it's getting pretty cringeworthy.

Also, as burned consumers, it is our duty to ensure others don't get burned. Developers should never be allowed to pull bullshit moves, and when they do they should face the repercussions of that move. Also, I think Bugbear are able to take criticism, as we have seen some developers just implode when they get a lot of negative feedback. So what if Bugbear stop developing NCG, they might actually save themselves the hassle of saying the game is finished when the only things around are tumbleweeds.

The fact remains that a large proportion of the core players and supportes are now either dead against Bugbear, or just so pissed off they don't even care any more. The fact remains that NCG has taken a severe downturn in quality and direction. The fact remains that Bugbear said they wanted our feedback yet never listened. You can stick your fingers in your ears all you like, but the negativity is never going away. It always has a reason for existing, and the reason in this instance is that Bugbear decided they knew best, and robbed us of what was already an incredible game and replaced it with a meandering, mediocre one that has less sense of direction than a blind man caught in a tornado.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:36:22 PM by BrianUK »

TheEngiGuy

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The fact remains that NCG has taken a severe downturn in quality and direction.

Only if you're stuck in 2015.