Author Topic: Why Bugbear?  (Read 3265 times)

Daystar

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Unbelievable Bugbear! why did you guys decide to remove a lot of shortcuts? I thought you guys were more wild than that! there are so many cuts now that are hindered useless!
but what really cuts the cake, is the last clip on my video, where you guys disabled the legal short cut on the Mixed 4 track!!! just unbelievable. and no I do not love cuts to get better
times on the leaderboard... come to think of it, I have not even checked the leader boards in months lol! but cuts are fun, hell let the bots even take the cuts, more madness you know?



Sorry to rage on a lil, but damn it to hell! it's all good though, still love Wreckfest!

BenDover

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Sadly I cant see your video but I need to say that this is good news (in my opinion ofc) :) Merra x-mas Daystar!
Clean and fair racer, but dont make me mad ;)
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HyperXHyperX

  • Posts: 118
Well, the point of not allowing shortcuts is to make for an authentic feel, which is what the game tries to be. I mean cutting the track is something that's actually a bug; as in: Not supposed to happen in the first place.

Obviously, there's still a lot of opportunities to cut, but I hope they will be eliminated until release. In that sense, I have to agree with BenDover.

Purple44

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I was shock tonight online when we ran Mixed 4 track and I used the shortcut and my lap did not count. I will fight to have this shortcut put back in. Having some risky shortcuts should be allow in the "spirit of Flatout". Wreckfest need some. The Mixed 4 a good one.  :D :D

Daystar, since I can't watch your video, not sure what other shortcuts you are talking about?

But I do want start a Mixed 4 thread to have talk about the Mixed 4 shortcut.

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St. Jimmy

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Purple that looks like a joker lap route that isn't ready yet. It should be slower than the main route and you shouldn't cut it in the middle  :P

I'd like to see some of the shortcuts that Daystar showed be blocked with more authentic way like rocks or something heavy.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 01:39:49 PM by St. Jimmy »
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t3MP . 3ROr

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Shortcuts should be very very risky, maybe combined with alternative routes in some places, if there is a corner where accidents happens a lot and the road gets blocked, an alternative slower/longer route would be good. The shortcuts/alternative routes I think also should be optional.

Merry/happy X-mas from Denmark  :D
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 02:29:02 PM by t3MP . 3ROr »
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Rowdy Burns

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Bugbear should get rid of all shortcuts in my opinion... cutting corners should be risky!!

Happy Christmas everyone!

RickyB

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.... there are so many cuts now that are hindered useless! ...! but cuts are fun, hell let the bots even take the cuts, more madness you know?

+1000

Not only is it less fun, but from a gameplay perspective it is completely counter productive. Now we have the same problem on the tracks as we had some time ago:
Just gonna copy my old post here:

Thanks for the update. I noticed just one thing on tarmac 1:
On Tarmac 1 - I usually jumped over the little hill where it says "Tower" on the map. (just for fun - it's not faster!)


Now that doesn't work anymore :-\ ... I guess anti-cutting measurements? I also used to smash through the tower just for fun, but now the off-track sign appears very early. (you cut a little bit too much - the red sign appears). Maybe put some terrain there? I mean you can still cut a little - even smash through the tower, but if you cut just a little bit too much, you have to reset your car (or drive back) - that does feel quite artificial and not intuitive.


The player should be able to recognise the areas where you can cut and where you can't cut by DESIGN, not through invisible areas/checkpoints where you have no idea where you are allowed to drive. Just saying, it feels artificial and not intuitive.
If it is possible: an option to expand the checkpoint again (as it was in every other build) would be very much appreciated.

also
The problem is - you can cut to a certain amount, but you have no indication to what amount. A rock would be a very clear indicator for example. You could cut right from the rock, but if you drive left from the rock you'll get the off-track-sign. just an example. My personal favourite would be ramps or terrain that let's you cut but is not necessarily faster but maybe lets you fly back onto the track again. Cutting has to be possible to a certain amount, otherwise you could push someone just a little bit off track and his red sign appears, so that he has to reset or drive back. that would be too easy I think.


This is as bad as the slow-down-sand or some super slippery offroad surface for preventing cutting.

Again - fun gameplay is suffering with this kind of mesurements - it only promotes clean stay-on-your-track racing - I thought wreckfest wanted to be better than that.

Oh yeah, and - Merry Christmas everyone!  :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 05:13:29 PM by RickyBøbby »

PsychOXRat

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It's more of an argument regarding cutting the track being faster than actually using the track, it's a fine line there, they can't have the checkpoints too wide or it would be simply faster to cut a huge section of the track out, they can't have it too small or you'll get the wrong way sign when falling off the track
Take Snetterton for example, irl there are some huge places where you can cut the track and make up a huge amount of time, but common sense dictates to not do them, that and rules and regulation mean that virtually no racing allows for cutting the track

Here are some huge time saving cuts at Snetterton:


I know in NCG the cuts aren't that big, but it isn't something that should be encouraged
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Daystar

  • Posts: 2245
Here is video for you Purple... these are the cuts I was referring to.                                                                                                                         _




Purple44

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Thanks Daystar for posting youtube video. I can't go through response to reach shortcut, got company coming.

About half the shortcuts I would allow, about half I would not allow.
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sam223

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Bugbear should get rid of all shortcuts in my opinion... cutting corners should be risky!!

Happy Christmas everyone!
+1

I remember arguing about this in the past. Personally i don't think shortcuts or alternative routes on a circuit actually make the racing any better. You need to first make sure the 2 routes are balanced speed wise,otherwise 1 is completely pointless. I also don't think they make the racing more exciting, as splitting the pack creates less chance of contact overall. Id rather follow someone around the circuit and take them out, rather than the person in front taking a different route and then the only opportunity for contact being when they rejoined me on the same part of track.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 06:44:09 PM by sam223 »
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Devin

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Bugbear should get rid of all shortcuts in my opinion... cutting corners should be risky!!

Happy Christmas everyone!
+1

I remember arguing about this in the past. Personally i don't think shortcuts or alternative routes on a circuit actually make the racing any better. You need to first make sure the 2 routes are balanced speed wise,otherwise 1 is completely pointless. I also don't think they make the racing more exciting, as splitting the pack creates less chance of contact overall. Id rather follow someone around the circuit and take them out, rather than the person in front taking a different route and then the only opportunity for contact being when they rejoined me on the same part of track.
And this also applies to clean racing. People complain that there's no fighting in Formula 1 anymore. But then in games they even prefer not having to physically get past cars ahead of them because they could simply use a different route? Where's the fun in that? If I race online against people, I don't want to show that I can set faster laptimes. That's what the leaderboard is for. I want to physically race against them, which obviously doesn't happen if we drive entirely different tracks for half a lap.

And the point with the balanced speed - of course, if you give us a track and then a "shortcut" that's 4 seconds faster, who would be insane enough to drive the normal route? So what's the point anyway?

Then there's what Rat said. You could even argue that one could even leave out the entire mid section of Snetterton simply because there's a "physical shortcut", a tiny track segment there connecting the two. And for everyone who doesn't know how racetracks work: Yes, that is in fact a different route, not a shortcut. If it was possible in Wreckfest, everyone would still take that and call it 'shortcut'.

Now, in real racing you leave those 'shortcuts' because 1. no one would ever use them and 2. it is safer in case something on a car breaks or something. Well, in Wreckfest crashes, chaos and destruction is something even clean racers sometimes like as long as it actually happens by accident, and not having anything to brutally crash the car into is sometimes rather boring (huge + for sandpit3 where you can brutally lose the car and crash into the van after the jump towards the tarmac section). And in Wreckfest people often don't stick to rules anyway and even ruin their own game by doing stuff and demanding gameplay elements that in the end they suffer more from than they would ever imagine. How to make people stop complaining about "cheating" with the artificial shortcut rule enforcement? Physically block shortcuts with something dynamic, but not profitable or even immovable like barriers as a last stop behind other props.

For example, the Mixed4 section is a joker lap. Put a wall there if no gamemode with joker laps is in use. Then on other tracks put something inside the corner (like the tower on Tarmac1 but more, bigger and even less profitable to crash through, makes sure no one does it completely on purpose) and on corner entry and exit something on the outside instead of artificial slowdown (which we currently have) and the missing checkpoints stuff. I think both clean racers and banger racers would like some good chances to crash their own or their opponents' cars into a pile of dynamic props. I certainly enjoy trying to get past someone, failing by hitting the other car by accident which makes me lose control over mine and then brutally crash and flip into a pile of movable objects, tyre walls and even the bridge on Tarmac1. Just feels so satisfying.

I don't see people complaining about the lack of shortcuts on Mixed2 and Tarmac2 for example and both have not a single shortcut that makes you any faster. Instead they have walls. Unfortunately, the walls are solid and I personally dislike them, if there was a good way to put dynamic props around them to make them seem like much less of a boring gamestopper I would strongly prefer that and people would still avoid those walls, yet like crashing into them if that ever happens. But still I would prefer having the walls there over having none because that means I can follow the great and fun track instead of having to go straight over corners, completely leaving them out sometimes, just to not have a disadvantage.

And really, what do people gain from cutting? If Hoppen for example was the fastest on the leaderboard with a clean lap and I wanted to be faster but I'm physically incapable of setting a faster laptime, I couldn't just cut. Because if I did cut to become faster than him, guess what. He would do exactly the same and once again be faster than me. This will go on infinitely until there are no shortcuts we haven't tried. And in the end, guess what. Yes, exactly, we would be in the same spots as before. He would probably still be faster than me because he's just faster around the track in general. If I make up two seconds by cutting, he can do the same and be faster yet again. See the problem here? It only ruins racing.

And yes, this part was not made up. This actually happened when Mixed3 came out and we obliterated everyone else's times until we became so fast that even we wouldn't have thought it. In the end he won and I gave up because what's the point in finding more shortcuts instead of actually being faster?

tl;dr please less artificial anti-shortcut and instead some nice, cool physical things there for people to crash themselves or others into without gaining anything. More fun for everyone, less shortcuts which only ruin racing and fun anyway


/rant about shortcuts that ruin the game for everyone, including those who love them

Daystar

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Thanks for your input on this matter Devin. much appreciated, and very thought out I must say!                        _ Merry X-Mas!

Purple44

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But one thing you got to ask, what kind of racing game should Wreckfest be? If Wreckfest wants to be a spiritual successor to Flatout, one way to do that is give us some tracks with risky shortcuts. Flatout had many official shortcuts and unofficial shortcuts.  :D

But Wreckfest has leaderbroads and some players take the lap times real serious and may spend a lot time trying get that top 10 lap time.

Can risky shortcuts and leaderbroads coexist? I think they can if you have a system separate to define the left and right boundaries of track where a player has keep at least 2 wheels on the track. The AI sectors that are use with Wreckfest usually give some cushion on the left and right of the track so players are not triggering the red circle so much when get knock to the side of the track. Checkpoints is what use to stop big checking of tracks.







I think Bugbear going have decide if they want allow some risky shortcuts or keep the Wreckfest tracks true to the leaderbroads and not allow any cheating of the tracks, if Bugbear not going put in a system that will allow shortcuts, but also keep "cheated" track times off the leaderbroads.

If Bugbear allow some risky shortcuts in track design, part of community going be unhappy. If Bugbear stick to designing all tracks to be shortcut proof, another part of the community going be unhappy.  Bugbear going have hard time pleasing all of us on this one.

Can we compromise and have Bugbear give us 2-3 tracks where we can use a risky shortcut, like the Mixed 4 track?

****************************

Here my thoughts on the shortcuts in Daystar video:



This from a racing online perspective.

0:10 - allow, where the sign is, if cut corner sharp enough to the left, to miss where the sign is, that cheating the corner to much.

0:14 - disallowed, never been fan of this shortcut, to big of a cheat.

0:27 - allow, this is risky shortcut and doubt it faster. If I go wide or get push wide, I go with it, but it a bumpy ride and getting back on the track not so smooth.

0:38 - disallowed, need to be consistence when it come to the concrete pillars for race officials. You can't cheat the one in Tarmac 1 hairpin, so no cheating here either. I be using that concrete pillar for one end my checkpoint if I was designing a track.

0:59 - allow, it risky, not a big cheat.

1:24 - disallowed, not risky.

1:11 - allow, this good example of a risky shortcut, if you don't brake at the right time and come in at the right angle, you label to smack the left wall. If to late or get bumped, you can get stop by the inner right wall. And you do risk rolling over your car when getting back on the track.







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