Carmageddon: Reincarnation - Stainless

rhamm

Member
Weeked Smasher
Team Bugbear Member
I've been playing this game more and I'm thinking my problem at the beginning was the first cars are kinda vanilla. Once I got to some of the more powerful cars the game became more fun because the gore became a lot better. Plus the cow level (Coastal?) is flatout awesome.

It's a shame the game is so horribly optimized. Hopefully they figure out that part but I'm not going to hold my breath because of the post below:

http://www.carmageddon.com/comment/69793#comment-69793
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Thank rhamm for the link. Been reading through the thread and seem C:R really need 2GB of vram on the video card and that not enough if you want to max the graphic settings:

#149

Trackah123 said:
I just discovered with MSI Afterburner (G510 LCD Display) that with "Ultra High" image quality it just goes a little over 2GB VRAM. Since i have a GTX 670 which has 2GB VRAM xD so if it goes over the VRAM limit, it seems to slow down the entire game to like 5 - 10 FPS.

"High" image quality just stays a little below that 2GB barrier and it runs fine.

If they could just optimize that VRAM usage a little bit.
I do notice that this game uses all the GPU power, CPU is around 30% (i7 920 CPU 2.66ghz), and regular RAM between 2 - 5 GB.

So yes i think its mainly the GPU usage and VRAM usage that needs optimizing.

Here the Stainless Dev post that rhamn link to. Post will give you an idea what settings you may want to tweak to get better FPS.

Rosario_SG said:
Hello,
dev from the beautiful Isle of Wight here*.
I'm one of the graphics programmer directly involved on the development of the engine** in Stainless, so if you have question you can ask.
If people keeps the discussion polite I'll keep posting*** some tips / internal or explain why some stuff are strange / horrible or "Why the computer start eating my laundry after running C:R?"
I'm on the graphic side, so if you ask me about physics/multiplayer probably I have to ask around. Geese.. I don't even know all the game mode that we have.

First thing to say is THANKS A LOT, this thread is pure gold for me. So having performance data from all this variety of hardware is AWESOME (ask why game company prefer to develop on console).

As some of you said we are using UMBRA for culling (the same as Destiny). Is awesome and uber-fast BUT the umbra culling is not currently "enabled" on the cubemap. So using reflection on anything but low will perform the culling is a very old style mode and I can assure is very slow.. no really there is no cleaver solution there, just brute force (7ms to check the visibility of the scene). Low reflection quality is a static cubemap (non HDR).. a bit sad but fast.
Yes, we are using multiple core to do "stuff".. but the engine is quite old and we still have to parallelize some other "stuff". But we are a small team so things evolve quite slowly. Running stuff in parallel can create bad crash (hard to debug, hard to find) if not done correctly.
Also most of the physics run in parallel, but apart from some case (like pinball mode where everything in the map is active or huge crash) is not a bottleneck. Moving 1000 pedestrian is quite demanding and the absence of peds and AI is the cause of the higher framerate in multiplayer.

Peds, Physics and AI become a problem with low spec CPU. We are not doing any ninja GPU trick on the game side (maybe later? who know?).

As you can see the game run A LOT faster on card with a lot of VRAM... yep, the virtual texturing is quite demanding and the *driver* have to transfer a lot of data.
If you have 1GiB I suggest to set the visual quality to low, it will reduce the size of the texture and the bandwidth consumed by DirectX. Cars texture are not streamed, cause the position of the car is quite unpredictable, we had no gain in streaming the car textures. Sorry Espyo but is really hard to support a Card with only 512MiB when only one texture for the car is almost 50MiB.

Shadows is another demanding part of the game... not because are very beautiful or complex but cause we are rendering a lot of them. Sorry again, this part has not properly optimized yet. Was better than before but still require some work. At some point during the development we were rendering a shadow-maps for every lamp on the level.. LOL :-V

I'm surprised by someone saying that removing SSAO increase the performance. That take less than one ms on my GTX760 and even less to apply it.

Someone was complaining that there wasn't any gain from the beta. Yes, we optimized the game but we also added new content, so yes, in some cases you can had even a degradation of the performance.

Anyway, at the moment the game is actually stalled by a lot of "interaction" between the CPU and the GPU, so yes, we are not using all your expensive hardware at 100%, we hope to fix this bug soon. But as you may notice a lot of game company have nVidia or AMD support to develop the game (they have the vendor symbol at the on the opening) and they know exactly what the driver and windows is doing, in some case they release a custom driver with the "upgrade" for the game with 10~20% of performance gain.
We are not Ubisoft or EA, so we don't have the power to change the driver. Hopefully if the game become very popular (finger cross) some engineer at nVidia that like kill peds will release a patch for us.
Sorry if it take so long, but developing a game without Unreal 4 is a complex task (is complex even with UE4 but at least the graphics is already done).

PS: With the latest patch I remove a bug that making the game stutter on the first lap, is noticeable?

* citation needed. No really I'm from Stainless. You can find my name in the credits. Oh.. yes, I could have watched the credits and create an account with that name. anyway.. if you don't believe me I don't mind.
** in my defence I'm here only since one year. :-/
***if they don't fire me cause this post.
Here a helpful post:

Trackah123 said:
For reference, I'm running a 6-core AMD Phenom II 1075T, 8G RAM and a 1G HD6870
Since it seems this game is heavily dependant on the amount of GPU VRAM. and you have a 1GB graphics card.
Try lower the "Image Quality" setting.

Image Quality (Very Low/Low/Medium/High/Very High)
Again, at this stage of development, the quality names don't necessarily correlate to typical expectations. This setting controls the down sampling of textures at load time to reduce total VRAM usage and roughly map to:

Very Low: <1GB VRAM GPU
Low: 1GB
Medium: 2GB
High: 3GB+
Very High: Obscene (but future proof)


This setting can have by far the largest detrimental effect on performance (<1FPS on systems that should be able to do >60FPS).

Massive VRAM cost.
https://carmageddon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200685151-FPS-Improvement-Checklist
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Carmageddon: Reincarnation final version got release Thursday, May 21. I have not been able read up on all the release news, but here some what I read about:

Stainless was able to optimize C:R better than what the beta ran, but a lot players still struggle to get good FPS and because of this, Carmageddon: Reincarnation been getting some bad reviews. Here a reply from head Stainless Dev nobby:

http://www.carmageddon.com/forum/topic/28463?page=7

nobby said:
Hey gang,

So, you may have noticed that I've been replying to some of the negative reviews on Steam. In the first instance I thought it would be the most gracious thing to do - as people have spent money on the game, and it's distressing to see that a significant number of those who have bought it (or are getting their Early Access game updated by the full release) are still having problems or are unhappy with the optimisation.

What we’re all seeing is that a significant number of players are experiencing the same as we have, the game’s frame-rate having improved significantly in the period from Beta to this full release build. But unfortunately there’s also still a lot of people who are having issues with the game’s performance. And sadly this is really reflecting badly on the game at the moment, as the players most likely to post reviews of their first impressions of the full release build are the ones for whom it’s a shitty experience.

Anyway, I wanted to just post this here to let you know we’re taking all of this hugely seriously and say, once again, that we DO listen to all the bug reporting, feedback and criticism and that it WILL inform how we go about scheduling the patches and updates that the game still needs.

A demo is planned, Dr. Fraggington & SkyNET.

And CrapShoot, the only way to start a new Career game is the "messy" way, I'm afraid - due to the Steam cloud save implementation.
As I post before, I've been unable to get Carmageddon: Reincarnation to finish loading because it don't like my Win 7 because it not fully updated. The final release version of C:R has same problem. Crash on 21:26:31-> Initialise Graphics. I will give updating my Win 7 a try tomorrow and see if that will do the trick. I hope the updating of Win 7 does not screw up my other games. Seen post that this can happen. Was hoping Stainless would fix the problem on their end.

I also blame Microsoft for not releasing a service pack 2 for Win 7. This is my preferred way of keeping Windows updated. And using Firefox over Internet Explorer.

From what I read, I will not be able to crank the graphic settings in Carmageddon: Reincarnation with my 660 video card. To truly enjoy the eye candy in C:R, I may have to wait until I get a new video card.

Here links to the 4 new Carmageddon: Reincarnation trailer videos:




 

Daystar

Gone in 60 seconds!
Game looks cool...

However on a side note: I am so amazed at Codemasters Dirt Rally's Graphics on my POS graphics card! they know how to do great gameplay with awesome graphics, that I am able to fully appreciate with my cheap graphics card. no fps hits (spikes) at all! and I run the game at a high setting.

Just hopefully when we get our new WF build, I will see a bit better performance. currently I'm getting about 30 to 40 fps with Wreckfest. but we all know, there will be optimizations in the graphics department before the full game releases.

so on these notes,.. I believe I am not interested in trying this new Carmageddon with what you stated.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Nobby said there a demo planed. Might give that a try. All PC games that are going to tax your computer hardware and may not even run, should have a demo for players to tryout! Should be a law!!

It use to be shareware back in Duke Nukem days when you could tryout the game first and then send the Devs the money. Was an honor system and many players took advantage of it and played shareware game a lot and never sent Devs any money.

I sent Apogee Software $35 for Duke Nukem. :)

 

Zebulon55

ZeBBy
Master Blaster
Ya, I always liked demos and shareware. Never bought the platform games, but I did buy Duke3D and the expansion pack, and Blood and One Unit Whole Blood because I loved the shareware versions and wanted more.
The demo had better run well and represent the final game, though.
Carmageddon Reincarnation ran pretty well in beta for me.
I overlooked Grid and Grid 2, and after learning about them on this forum, I tried the demos. Couldn't get either to run, even though the computer is certainly capable of running the games.
Oh, well, got enough games to play now, anyway.

Sent from my XT1055 using Tapatalk
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Zebulon55 said:
Ya, I always liked demos and shareware. Never bought the platform games, but I did buy Duke3D and the expansion pack, and Blood and One Unit Whole Blood because I loved the shareware versions and wanted more.
The demo had better run well and represent the final game, though.
Carmageddon Reincarnation ran pretty well in beta for me.
I overlooked Grid and Grid 2, and after learning about them on this forum, I tried the demos. Couldn't get either to run, even though the computer is certainly capable of running the games.
Oh, well, got enough games to play now, anyway.

Sent from my XT1055 using Tapatalk
Did you patch GRID 1 to v1.3 Zeb?
 

Zebulon55

ZeBBy
Master Blaster
You had to patch the demo? Why wouldn't they released a patched demo.
Demo has to be good if they want to sell games.......

Sent from my XT1055 using Tapatalk
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Zebulon55 said:
You had to patch the demo? Why wouldn't they released a patched demo.
Demo has to be good if they want to sell games.......

Sent from my XT1055 using Tapatalk
Oops miss the "I tried the demos" part in your post. :-[ Patch for the full game.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Thanks to Starbuck over at Carmageddon: Reincarnation forum, I was able to get my wheel working with C:R.

Game is looking good, but where is wheel support?!

First off, there is no wheel support in Carmageddon: Reincarnation and Stainless been quiet about if wheel support going to be patch in. So don't hold your breath. :(

Back during the Kickstarter drive, Stainless said this:

http://app.carmageddon.tv/forum/topic/18413?page=1


hammr25 said:
23/06/2012
Nobby said this during the Kickstarter campaign:

Nobby said:
Regarding controllers - Yes, depending on platform we want to support pads and force feedback wheels.
We've got some excellent Logitech controllers that we're keen to get working with the game.
So I thought it was safe to buy C:R. Without wheel support I would of pass.

But my wheel does work some what in C:R without having to do anything. I can steer right and left and some buttons work, but gas and brake pedals do not work in a race. But gas pedal can scroll the menus.

If you want the details how I got wheel working OK, read the thread I link to above. I ended up having to tweak the Controls_Gamepad_Preset_B.TXT file to this:

//This defines a preset game controller configuration

[ACCELERATE]
LSTICK_DOWN

[BRAKE]
LSTICK_UP

[STEER_LEFT]
LSTICK_LEFT

[STEER_RIGHT]
LSTICK_RIGHT

[HAND_BRAKE]

[RECOVER]
BUT_D

[REPAIR]
BUT_C

[POWERUP_SELECT_UP]

[POWERUP_SELECT_DOWN]

[POWERUP_ACTIVATE_SELECTED_ONE]
L1


I delete the other code that I did not need or causing trouble with my wheel. And I use JoyToKey program to map the keyboard keys to the buttons I want to use on my DFGT wheel.





There a dead zone with my wheel, so have to turn it a bit before wheel turn. this can cause me to over steer. But if car is damage it will get worse. Need to keep car repaired. I have throttle when I press down gas pedal. When I let up on gas pedal, car brakes, then goes into reverse. At start of race if late hitting the gas, car will start going backwards.

I put together a video, Will be in next post when it get done uploading. Here pic to tie you over:

 

Needles Kane

Member
Weeked Smasher
Purple, what you think about C:R? If forgot technical issues and dated graphics, I think it is great game. Sadly MP is not yet very functional, MP games itself is great fun, but lobby is horrible mess. Hopefully there is post release patch to improve it.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Needles Kane said:
Purple, what you think about C:R? If forgot technical issues and dated graphics, I think it is great game. Sadly MP is not yet very functional, MP games itself is great fun, but lobby is horrible mess. Hopefully there is post release patch to improve it.
With no text chat, online will not survive. :mad:

Have not try online yet. With only 6 players and no peds, what players do online? Would think most players did not buy C:R for the racing. Without proper wheel support, I would have hell time racing real players online with the dead zone I have to deal with. :(

I got Carmageddon: Reincarnation for the peds and wacky cars and the humor of the game. Definitely not a serious racing game. It a fun game when the peds are putting their Groove on. :)

I can't recommend buying the game since there no wheel support and no chat text ( Stainless let me down there ) and game does pause sometimes, even with 40+ FPS with low graphic settings and 1024x768 ( that what game pick for my computer ). I'm OK with the look of the graphics even on low settings. But as you see in video, steering of car is frustrating at times and need to keep the cars repair or steering get worse.

But if you going in knowing these things and ok with using a pad or KB and want a laugh, then you might pickup Carmageddon: Reincarnation if you think it your kind of game. But for racing, Wreckfest is where it at.
 

The Very End

Well-Known Member
Weeked Smasher
Master Blaster
My biggest issue - canot fint even one MP game. Should I play more carrer before I see more games in multiplayer?
 

Needles Kane

Member
Weeked Smasher
My biggest issue - canot fint even one MP game. Should I play more carrer before I see more games in multiplayer?
Still got MP locked or just can't find games to join? If latter, that is probably due to already dead multiplayer.

You should join in this group. https://steamcommunity.com/groups/C_UN_T
It is unofficial official group, fan made, but there is some Stainless staff members in here too, Nobby and Shane.

Is there anybody other who is interested playing C:R online? We could have our own tournament, we can use C_UN_T's group chat to replace missing text chat.

With only 6 players and no peds, what players do online? Would think most players did not buy C:R for the racing.
Racing is actually fun. Not serious racing, but more ''putting a spanner in the works'' way. Use all the dirt trick you can invent. In one race I found slaughter mortars, I parked my car around the corner and when opponent passed by, I followed it and nuked it, I stole points and won the race. In next race player who I have bullied tried to do same to me, but I got mine shitting ability and again I left victorious.
 

The Very End

Well-Known Member
Weeked Smasher
Master Blaster
Thanks for reply :)
It's not grey anymore. The sollution was to delete the whole Carma folder within Steam. Still feel a bit cheated since I never edited the files in first place, so that bug is on Stainless, not me... also when downloading several GB's on a very slow internet line over DAYS, it's really grind my gears. ANYHOW, it's kind of working, but performs very bad on my computer and several minutes loading on low/medium settings.

Thanks for the link to the group, I'll see if I'll join it later.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Ok, here where I'm at with getting my DFGT wheel to work with Carmageddon: Reincarnation:

Game is looking good, but where is wheel support?!

Purple44 said:
Last night was a bust with Xpadder. Xpadder see my gas and brake pedals as triggers, but C:R still will not use the gas and brake pedals when I use config A that has the triggers as gas and brake.

I can live with the gas and brake pedals set to LSTICK_DOWN and LSTICK_UP now that I got reverse cam set to Still.

It the steering where I wish it was better because of the deadzone. I took another look at JoyToKey. If I map the keyboard keys to steering wheel. I get rid of deadzone, but then steering become to sensitive, a lot of over steering. JoyToKey has Auto Repeat option, how many times key is push a second. I was getting close to a number I could live with, but there times my wheel would quit steering the car and car just keep going straight. GRRRR So JoyToKey a no go for steering.

I'm done trying figure out something better. Game playable so I will work through career until maybe Stainless give us proper wheel support. As it stand right now, I can not recommend buying Carmageddon: Reincarnation if want to use a wheel. :(

Also there no text chat online!! :mad:

*******************************************************

Ok, here a summary of what I'm doing to use a wheel in Carmageddon: Reincarnation. ( I big thank you goes out to starbuck for his help :D )

1. Need to edit one the controller config file. I change the Controls_Gamepad_Preset_B.TXT file to this:

//This defines a preset game controller configuration

[ACCELERATE]
LSTICK_DOWN

[BRAKE]
LSTICK_UP

[STEER_LEFT]
LSTICK_LEFT

[STEER_RIGHT]
LSTICK_RIGHT

[HAND_BRAKE]

[RECOVER]
BUT_D

[REPAIR]
BUT_C

[POWERUP_SELECT_UP]

[POWERUP_SELECT_DOWN]

[POWERUP_ACTIVATE_SELECTED_ONE]
L1


L1 and R1 are the flippers behind your wheel.


2. In preset above only 3 my buttons have been assign. I use JoyToKey to map the keyboard keys I want to use to the buttons on my wheel.




You can use Logitech Profiler to get an idea what button number your buttons on your wheel are. Logitech Profiler did not show me what button to use for JoyToKey for my shifter, so I use Wreckfest wheel setup to see what button the DFGT shifter is. Button 13 and 14.

3. The steering is to sensitive for me with my DFGT wheel with a 240 degree of rotation ( what my old MOMO wheel used ). So I bump it up to 330. Feel free to play with degree rotation until you are happy with it. Go to Global Device settings.



4. If have reverse camera set to rotate, when you let off gas pedal and brake kick in, cam going to rotate. I did not like this when I still want to see what was going on ahead of me. So I change this setting to Still.




This make Carmageddon: Reincarnation playable with my DFGT wheel, but I still have to deal with the deadzone. Also keep in mind, if car get some damage or blood or oil on the wheels, car become hard to handle. Repairing car help me get my steering control back.


Now back to working my way through career mode. I unlock level 5, 11 more levels to go. C:R got me talking to my monitor, "GET OFF ME, damn AI. I'm trying get that checkpoint ped just over there!!!!" :p
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Been working my way through career mode, unlock level 12 today. I'm curious how many players are playing Carmageddon: Reincarnation now that full release is out. I tape down my left mouse button to scroll leaderboard to see how many players played the first level map that all have to play and I only see 34,385 listings:



At level 11 I run out of time quickly and got a low score and scroll the rest the way down to only 4426 listings. Seem there not to many trying to finish career mode. And C:R been out for over 3 weeks.





This can't be good for Stainless to have these poor numbers. I was thinking Stainless was hurting financially to release Carmageddon: Reincarnation before game was ready for prime time. To many bad reviews costing Stainless.

https://steamdb.info/app/249380/graphs/
 

The Very End

Well-Known Member
Weeked Smasher
Master Blaster
Let's face it... game sucks at current time beeing. I really wish I could like it, I really do. But the technical problems of it is just too big to enjoy. I am playing on horrible looking graphics just to have 2 minutes of loading screen and crap performance. My computer is not best, but it god damn running Witcher 3 so this game should not be a problem.

If they only fixed it before relase everything would be golden, but they whent ahead and blowed their opertunity. The community that tries to support and love them are really in a uproar and the general mass media does not like the game at all.

Im not trying to be an ass, but this game just ain't good in it's current state.
 
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