Week #3 Report

Ving

Member
Well, I've got the spring centering off.

You still get centering without it, but only when moving, as a result of dynamic pressure forces. as the hardware states, its intended for games without force-feedback, or bad force feedback. Check it out - If you have it on, the wheel will still center, even if your not moving. Real cars dont generally do that.

The other forces, and the spring centering, conflict with each other. Try turning it off, and turning up the other effects,and you might find that 'seeming more realistic'.

Lari Fari said:
I would reccomend playing without centering spring. (assuming that is what you meant by "spring")

The centering forces when driving are enough to center the wheel. For example when letting the wheel slip through your fingers after a turn.

And when standing stil it makes no sense for the wheel to center itself. It wouldn't happen IRL and thats why I disabled it.

And it doesn't help to "feel" what your car is doing traction-wise. In contrary I think it hinders you from knowing whats actually going on with the forces at work :)
Me too!

Sorry for repeating essentially what you said, but, might as well say it as often as possible; 'Spring centering' is intended for games without force feedback/bad force feedback. and it conflicts with the damper/spring settings above it in the console.

I mean, if it works for you best, great! But, its not the place to start apparently with your set-up - for those reading this and trying to set up a wheel ;)
 

Ving

Member
Lari Fari said:
sam223 said:
Centring spring gives the same sensation you get while driving your road car. Full lock and then onto a straight,the wheel returns to centre. No centring spring and you would have to straighten up yourself after a turn,feels weird.
Actually that is not correct. Because the forces at work IRL that center your wheel are actually simulated in the game! Isn't that the whole point in FFB: to simulate what a real car and steering wheel would feel like?

I play with 0 % centering spring. The FFB itself is more than enough to straighten the wheel. Ofcourse only when the car is moving. When the car stands still theres no force on the wheel. Just like in a real car.

And here is another very important aspect to this. When drifting, the wheel will turn away from center as the tyres want to point in the direction they are moving NOT the direction the car is pointing!!

Say you are drifting around a bend that goes right. As soon as your rear end comes out and you're going sideways your tyres want to turn left forcing your wheel to turn left too.

The centering spring might work against that effect preventing you from feeling where the perfect point of the clean drift is, only making small corrections. Becaus as the tyres find the correct direction to point and the wheel will point in that direction too. But the centering spring will try to straighten the wheel, without there being a physics based reason for that...
Another great point. :)
 

Ving

Member
Purple44 said:
Centering spring for me help keep me from over steering. I need that resistance when turning wheel left and right.

I know some use a low FF. That messes me up if wheel turn to easy!!
Have you tried turning off the spring centering, but turning up the damper and spring settings above that?

In theory, it should give you what you are looking for, without giving you unrealistic opposed forces hitting your wheel at certain key moments when your trying to retain traction etc...

Having your steering wheel always trying to center, is not how a real car works, so for me atleast, it totally throws me off. As I've done more driving irl than most people will in a lifetime this really messes with me, and takes away from the 'feeling that I'm actually driving'
 

sam223

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
Lari Fari said:
sam223 said:
Centring spring gives the same sensation you get while driving your road car. Full lock and then onto a straight,the wheel returns to centre. No centring spring and you would have to straighten up yourself after a turn,feels weird.
Actually that is not correct. Because the forces at work IRL that center your wheel are actually simulated in the game! Isn't that the whole point in FFB: to simulate what a real car and steering wheel would feel like?

I play with 0 % centering spring. The FFB itself is more than enough to straighten the wheel. Ofcourse only when the car is moving. When the car stands still theres no force on the wheel. Just like in a real car.

And here is another very important aspect to this. When drifting, the wheel will turn away from center as the tyres want to point in the direction they are moving NOT the direction the car is pointing!!

Say you are drifting around a bend that goes right. As soon as your rear end comes out and you're going sideways your tyres want to turn left forcing your wheel to turn left too.

The centering spring might work against that effect preventing you from feeling where the perfect point of the clean drift is, only making small corrections. Becaus as the tyres find the correct direction to point and the wheel will point in that direction too. But the centering spring will try to straighten the wheel, without there being a physics based reason for that...
Yea this is true,havn't actually played wreckfest with a wheel for sometime now. Just assumed that with the complaints of FFB being bad in wreckfest there was no centering in the FFB.My bad.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
If using 900 rotation in a game ( say like a sim ), you would let go of the wheel and let wheel turn back to center.

But with 243, 222 degree rotation now for my DFGT wheel, I normally never let go of the wheel. So I'm not using the center spring to center my wheel ( I do that on my own power ), I use center spring option to give wheel more resistance as I turn wheel left or right. Help keep me from fishing tailing when trying to recover when rear end coming around ( over steering ). My wheels are full lock at 9:00 and 3:00 o'clock at 243 rotation.

It work for me. With low FF setting, my car be all over the place after making a quick steering move.

Most Force Feedback in a game is the bumps in the road or a game like GRID 1, you damage the car, the steering get rougher!
 

Ving

Member
Purple44 said:
If using 900 rotation in a game ( say like a sim ), you would let go of the wheel and let wheel turn back to center.

But with 243, 222 degree rotation now for my DFGT wheel, I normally never let go of the wheel. So I'm not using the center spring to center my wheel ( I do that on my own power ), I use center spring option to give wheel more resistance as I turn wheel left or right. Help keep me from fishing tailing when trying to recover when rear end coming around ( over steering ). My wheels are full lock at 9:00 and 3:00 o'clock at 243 rotation.

It work for me. With low FF setting, my car be all over the place after making a quick steering move.

Most Force Feedback in a game is the bumps in the road or a game like GRID 1, you damage the car, the steering get rougher!
Gotcha, i know exactly what your talking about (letting go to go back to center), even though its been along time since I've really messed w/ FF, so not familiar with that so much. Interesting.

Tbh, i dont know if NCG FF is considered good, bad, or avg, so maybe I'm not a good judge of this.

My gut tells me that maybe a 'little' centering spring, might not be a bad idea,

but it seems like I'm getting dynamic centering without it? - I also totally know what you mean about (I think this is what your implying) how FF can actually bang you around a bit more than ideal, or, if not set up properly, make you over-react when there is tension, and then no tension.

Hmmm. I will have to play around with light centering. Not good atleast on this wheel though in this game atleast for me, at 100 percent - Feels like the two types of feedback are fighting each other, and 'heavy then suddenly light sensation' at times that it shouldnt if its trying to replicate real driving physics.

I report back again, and report my settings, which someone might find useful, since i have a wheel most people dont really use at this point, and a little experience w/ rl muscle cars and sports cars, that might tell me 'how it should feel' vaguely.
 

rwb

Member
Weeked Smasher
I would not turn on the centering spring unless the game you're playing does not have functional FFB. In a sliding car, the steering wheel would not provide artificial resistance to the wheel/tires naturally turning into the direction of travel.

When using the full 1080 degrees of my wheel in some sort of sim, I rarely actually need more than 400 degrees or so and usually keep two hands on; when I want to be dorifito kingu I'll still only let go of the wheel to let it fly out to full-lock, and then return it to center with my own two hands. I'm not sure when I would ever let go of the wheel to let it return to center except at very low speeds.

NCG FFB feels to me like a promising work in progress. It's a little too "smooth," as if all tracks are perfect surfaces, and bear with me as I botch describing this, steering responses feel too linear at all speeds(?). In a real car, quickly turning your steering wheel 15 degrees at parking speeds doesn't do much, whereas the same movement at 120 has... significant effects. I feel like the reason we're all using such small ranges (I seem to be at the high end with 400 degrees lock-to-lock,) is because even at high speeds you still need to saw at the wheel as if you were moving slowly to effect a change in direction. Smaller and smaller movements of the wheel should be required to disrupt the car as speeds increase. Sliding around though feels good, and it's easy to feel where you'll need to control throttle.

Sorry if that didn't make any sense, I did a terrible job describing a problem I think everyone is aware of anyway.
 
B

BrianUK

Guest
rwb said:
I would not turn on the centering spring unless the game you're playing does not have functional FFB. In a sliding car, the steering wheel would not provide artificial resistance to the wheel/tires naturally turning into the direction of travel.

When using the full 1080 degrees of my wheel in some sort of sim, I rarely actually need more than 400 degrees or so and usually keep two hands on; when I want to be dorifito kingu I'll still only let go of the wheel to let it fly out to full-lock, and then return it to center with my own two hands. I'm not sure when I would ever let go of the wheel to let it return to center except at very low speeds.

NCG FFB feels to me like a promising work in progress. It's a little too "smooth," as if all tracks are perfect surfaces, and bear with me as I botch describing this, steering responses feel too linear at all speeds(?). In a real car, quickly turning your steering wheel 15 degrees at parking speeds doesn't do much, whereas the same movement at 120 has... significant effects. I feel like the reason we're all using such small ranges (I seem to be at the high end with 400 degrees lock-to-lock,) is because even at high speeds you still need to saw at the wheel as if you were moving slowly to effect a change in direction. Smaller and smaller movements of the wheel should be required to disrupt the car as speeds increase. Sliding around though feels good, and it's easy to feel where you'll need to control throttle.

Sorry if that didn't make any sense, I did a terrible job describing a problem I think everyone is aware of anyway.
I have had a fiddle with the 'Speed Sensitivity' setting, and putting this down do about 10% has a profound effect on turning at speed and does go some way to helping what you describe.
 

rwb

Member
Weeked Smasher
Well, these are my settings:



I think this is the problem most people who try the game for the first time with a 900-degree wheel describe as "boat-like" handling, there's something off about the effect of speed on the amount of input required to change direction.

While I'm griping, I should also say I hope the rewritten physics do better with low speeds, (almost-stopped is an important stage of crashing your car,) and that I did actually prefer the physics from the previous build- especially how much more fragile the cars were. Currently you seem to be able to land flat from any height and the suspension doesn't mind, whereas before there were plausible limits to the punishment it would endure. I enjoyed needing to think about the jumps on Gravel to keep all four wheels on my car for ten laps.
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
I think I know what you mean. I started with 900° when I first got my G27. Then a gradually reduced it and have now settled for 360° from lock to lock.

I play with 0 speed sensitivity too. Wouldn't steering sensitivity have the opposite effect of what you want? I think I got most of what you described..

I also fully agree on the ivincibility of suspension. Hope that changes, too :)
 
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