Week #5 Update

Jori Virtanen said:
Black Diesel said:
Really? o_O

Okay, uh... What do you think we should change in our approach to game design?
Don't take me wrong, this is just me waiting for next update. I have no opinion on how you should approach the game design.
You devs are actually more community friendly than others gamedevs, and you sit on a gold ore that waits to get mined by small screaming amöboes that want more and more.

Keep up the good work!
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
THIS IS BS!

We have to stop constantly requesting the blog. I am lloking forward to game updates and any info on progrress as much as most people.... BUT forcing Jori to share his personal problems in a (possibly desperate) attempt to make people understand "unforeseen things happen, that cause delays" and have mercy? This should not be necessary. This goes to far.

People may have noticed I don't post as much in the forum as I used to. Mostly because I will not be part of this constant whining for dev attention, news posts, game updates and so on...

I will jump back in when new stuff is discussed. But in the meantime I will do what many here should consider: SOMETHING ELSE !!!!!!

I don't usually post stuff this harsh. But I just needed to voice this.
 

Usmovers_02

Active Member
Full time wrecker
I've been taking pretty much the same approach to posting Lari. Certainly many of the concerns people have are very valid but I think people have let their frustration with the delays get the better of them.
 

kennta340

Member
Full time wrecker
I agree with Lari ! But noone was forcing him into sharing that but I can understand why he did that..


Ofc its got some delayed (2 months) and to be honest, it starting to feel on me, I will not whine on you, I know you doing your best :p


The only bad thing is that the game feel like its "done", what I mean with that is becuse of the long delayed it just feel there are no more updates (even if I know it is), please dont take me wrong here :p
 

Adenru

Member
Full time wrecker
Rabbit80 said:
We have pages and pages of ideas and comments on these forums over how everyone thinks the game should work, what content to include and so on - but very little from you guys acknowledging that.
Bugbear never aknoledges what I write them, but I often find it fulfilled.
 
B

BrianUK

Guest
Lari is right. I got way too carried away, and unintentionally put Jori in a tough position.

While it doesn't excuse my actions, I've had an awful couple of weeks at work and it has affected all parts of my life with regards to my temperament and the way I perceive things. I hold things very close to my chest and I don't talk to anyone when I'm under a lot of mental strain. After my post on Friday, I took the time to unwind and get my stress levels down and today I'm much happier, although things still aren't great at work. I went wild and played different games as well!

So, I'm deeply sorry for the way I've acted over the past few days, I needlessly put Jori in a crappy position and I've not been particularly pleasant.

So, yeah. My lunch break is over now. Bye!
 

Jori Virtanen

Automatic weapons and boundless love.
Rabbit80 said:
Jori Virtanen said:
Okay, uh... What do you think we should change in our approach to game design?
I think the community is screaming at you guys to engage them more in the design process. We have pages and pages of ideas and comments on these forums over how everyone thinks the game should work, what content to include and so on - but very little from you guys acknowledging that. You may have a vision, and the community also have a vision - but whether or not they are the same is anybody's guess. That is why we are constantly asking for updates on what is happening over there - to glean as much info as possible so we can make our own suggestions in the hope that they might be worked on.
Well, to this I can say that we read everything. Everything. I know I personally trawl through all discussions pertinent to my work, i.e. game design and community managing and blogging, but I don't have the time to reply to everything. That doesn't mean that I don't write stuff down or take notes, because I do, all the time. "Time" being the operative word here -- I have enough on my plate to last me well past the eight hours per day, and if I try to squeeze in time to write a personal reply to everything, I can't get all done I need to get done. I tried doing that last year, but doing stuff in such a hurry stressed me out too much, not to mention that rushing things leads to miscommunicating and screwing up and whatnot :)

And yes, part of the reason why we won't use a big portion of the community's ideas is indeed that the community has a different vision than we do -- but also because the community itself doesn't have a unified vision. That's because the community can't agree on anything. And this is okay! It's by no means criticism! People just like different stuff. But that's just the problem -- there's so many of you! And you don't have to read that many posts before it becomes very obvious that one player wants automatic weapons and boundless love, another hopes for crazy stunts and nitro boosted turbo jumps, third desires monster trucks and crashing buildings and so on. They're all quite nice game elements, but including all of them wouldn't work. So, we can't design a game with the community. What we can do is choose a direction, work on it, present it, and do our absolute best to make it better with your feedback while still maintaining our own vision. In short, we are collaborating with the community. And it is very useful indeed! Like I said before, you all ground us and tell us when we screw up. And we love you for it.


BenDover said:
But noone was forcing him (that is, me, Jori, says He Who Has The Power of Edit) into sharing that but I can understand why he did that..
Well, I wanted you guys to see what it takes for me to renege on my promise :)
That, and procrastinating :p
 

Rabbit80

Member
Jori Virtanen said:
Well, to this I can say that we read everything. Everything. I know I personally trawl through all discussions pertinent to my work, i.e. game design and community managing and blogging, but I don't have the time to reply to everything. That doesn't mean that I don't write stuff down or take notes, because I do, all the time. "Time" being the operative word here -- I have enough on my plate to last me well past the eight hours per day, and if I try to squeeze in time to write a personal reply to everything, I can't get all done I need to get done. I tried doing that last year, but doing stuff in such a hurry stressed me out too much, not to mention that rushing things leads to miscommunicating and screwing up and whatnot :)
Time management is a difficult thing to pull off with such a small team - I totally understand that!

Jori Virtanen said:
And yes, part of the reason why we won't use a big portion of the community's ideas is indeed that the community has a different vision than we do -- but also because the community itself doesn't have a unified vision. That's because the community can't agree on anything. And this is okay! It's by no means criticism! People just like different stuff. But that's just the problem -- there's so many of you! And you don't have to read that many posts before it becomes very obvious that one player wants automatic weapons and boundless love, another hopes for crazy stunts and nitro boosted turbo jumps, third desires monster trucks and crashing buildings and so on. They're all quite nice game elements, but including all of them wouldn't work. So, we can't design a game with the community. What we can do is choose a direction, work on it, present it, and do our absolute best to make it better with your feedback while still maintaining our own vision. In short, we are collaborating with the community. And it is very useful indeed! Like I said before, you all ground us and tell us when we screw up. And we love you for it.
This is where I personally feel you could improve.. There are lots of things in these forums where you can get a sense of how the community in general feel about something, and those are the topics you guys should get involved in more. Over the past few weeks, we have seen discussion after discussion over the same few topics.. I'm not sure how easy it is for you to address, but things are appearing to get out of hand to the point insults have been thrown and the have been censored. A lot of threads have some seriously negative overtones. Something really needs to be done.
 

kennta340

Member
Full time wrecker
BenDover said:
But noone was forcing him (that is, me, Jori, says He Who Has The Power of Edit) into sharing that but I can understand why he did that..
Well, I wanted you guys to see what it takes for me to renege on my promise :)
That, and procrastinating :p

Haha :p <3
 
Rabbit80 said:
This is where I personally feel you could improve.. There are lots of things in these forums where you can get a sense of how the community in general feel about something, and those are the topics you guys should get involved in more. Over the past few weeks, we have seen discussion after discussion over the same few topics.. I'm not sure how easy it is for you to address, but things are appearing to get out of hand to the point insults have been thrown and the have been censored. A lot of threads have some seriously negative overtones. Something really needs to be done.
Something needs to be done? How about people stop making posts that need to be censured? How about people stop making posts with seriously negative overtones? Or undertones for that matter. How about people understand the role of themselves and developers in the early access model?

In short, early access entitles you to play early versions of the game. Feed back on bugs, make suggestions. Suggestions. We're not shareholders, we're not owners, We don't get to have an AGM and sack everyone if the game doesn't go the way we want.

I read Jori's post this morning and, like Lari, I was just sad for him. Sad that work is interfering with his private life so much. The Bugbear team have really opened up, and humanised, the game development experience. Can't we do the decent thing and treat them like human beings? Lose the paranoia, conspiracy theories and remember they're just a bunch of guys, developing a game that the vast majority already have tens to hundreds of hours enjoyment from, very obviously listening and responding to our suggestions?
 
M

Mopower

Guest
presuming ed said:
Rabbit80 said:
This is where I personally feel you could improve.. There are lots of things in these forums where you can get a sense of how the community in general feel about something, and those are the topics you guys should get involved in more. Over the past few weeks, we have seen discussion after discussion over the same few topics.. I'm not sure how easy it is for you to address, but things are appearing to get out of hand to the point insults have been thrown and the have been censored. A lot of threads have some seriously negative overtones. Something really needs to be done.
Something needs to be done? How about people stop making posts that need to be censured? How about people stop making posts with seriously negative overtones? Or undertones for that matter. How about people understand the role of themselves and developers in the early access model?

In short, early access entitles you to play early versions of the game. Feed back on bugs, make suggestions. Suggestions. We're not shareholders, we're not owners, We don't get to have an AGM and sack everyone if the game doesn't go the way we want.

I read Jori's post this morning and, like Lari, I was just sad for him. Sad that work is interfering with his private life so much. The Bugbear team have really opened up, and humanised, the game development experience. Can't we do the decent thing and treat them like human beings? Lose the paranoia, conspiracy theories and remember they're just a bunch of guys, developing a game that the vast majority already have tens to hundreds of hours enjoyment from, very obviously listening and responding to our suggestions?
I would agree with this if I felt they were being truthful that they actually read EVERYTHING. I don't think they do, but they certainly do read quite a lot, and even I can't keep up with everything on the forum.
 

chuckskyline

Member
Master Blaster
presuming ed said:
Rabbit80 said:
This is where I personally feel you could improve.. There are lots of things in these forums where you can get a sense of how the community in general feel about something, and those are the topics you guys should get involved in more. Over the past few weeks, we have seen discussion after discussion over the same few topics.. I'm not sure how easy it is for you to address, but things are appearing to get out of hand to the point insults have been thrown and the have been censored. A lot of threads have some seriously negative overtones. Something really needs to be done.
Something needs to be done? How about people stop making posts that need to be censured? How about people stop making posts with seriously negative overtones? Or undertones for that matter. How about people understand the role of themselves and developers in the early access model?

In short, early access entitles you to play early versions of the game. Feed back on bugs, make suggestions. Suggestions. We're not shareholders, we're not owners, We don't get to have an AGM and sack everyone if the game doesn't go the way we want.

I read Jori's post this morning and, like Lari, I was just sad for him. Sad that work is interfering with his private life so much. The Bugbear team have really opened up, and humanised, the game development experience. Can't we do the decent thing and treat them like human beings? Lose the paranoia, conspiracy theories and remember they're just a bunch of guys, developing a game that the vast majority already have tens to hundreds of hours enjoyment from, very obviously listening and responding to our suggestions?
So..all you want is roses and rainbows?

I believe the criticism is warranted against BB on two accounts: The Vagueness on the direction/vision this game has and the lack of updates/delay because of the physics build.

Jori: is doing the best he can. My comments in no shape or form has been directed towards Jori. If it has, I do apologize.

While, we can beat a dead horse and talk about how the consumer has no rights with E.A (as in we are not the investors etc). Saying that repeatedly doesn't help.

If I may, state something rather harsh and revealing: BB opened themselves up to this. They wanted an open experience with the community while in E.A, to shape the game, to build the game the way we wanted it according to their vision. With that, comes the good and the bad. It would be really easy to shut it down, but they haven't.

A moderator (I don't remember who) when I said, they have changed their vision and disagreed with me:
They have. The game I bought in August/September had a different vision. That is why the delay. They got more money and their vision changed and was expanded upon.
Another example: Poke around the forums someone asked what SP was going to be like, Tero said it was going to be limited and different then MP, they have since changed their vision in the way they are handling SP.

The big vision of creating 'the best' destructive derby type game hasn't changed.

Also: most of the time the negative posts if you sift through them or TL:DR them, stems from two main points, which I pointed out: the vagueness and the delay.

Its a sad state, when in E.A "I should play other games" "Go outside" "do something else"

That is alarming.. another way of saying it, stop caring about this game 'until its done'.

That isn't the point of E.A, we should be caring about the game, we should be testing it, and putting input into it... they haven't given us anything in 6 months to do that with..

Let me put it this way: There haven't been any criticism about the game itself in a long time, the criticism has been about the delay and the 'what this game is'... to me, that is the sad thing.
 

Rektist

New Member
Jori Virtanen said:
Rabbit80 said:
Jori Virtanen said:
Okay, uh... What do you think we should change in our approach to game design?
I think the community is screaming at you guys to engage them more in the design process. We have pages and pages of ideas and comments on these forums over how everyone thinks the game should work, what content to include and so on - but very little from you guys acknowledging that. You may have a vision, and the community also have a vision - but whether or not they are the same is anybody's guess. That is why we are constantly asking for updates on what is happening over there - to glean as much info as possible so we can make our own suggestions in the hope that they might be worked on.
Well, to this I can say that we read everything. Everything. I know I personally trawl through all discussions pertinent to my work, i.e. game design and community managing and blogging, but I don't have the time to reply to everything. That doesn't mean that I don't write stuff down or take notes, because I do, all the time. "Time" being the operative word here -- I have enough on my plate to last me well past the eight hours per day, and if I try to squeeze in time to write a personal reply to everything, I can't get all done I need to get done. I tried doing that last year, but doing stuff in such a hurry stressed me out too much, not to mention that rushing things leads to miscommunicating and screwing up and whatnot :)

And yes, part of the reason why we won't use a big portion of the community's ideas is indeed that the community has a different vision than we do -- but also because the community itself doesn't have a unified vision. That's because the community can't agree on anything. And this is okay! It's by no means criticism! People just like different stuff. But that's just the problem -- there's so many of you! And you don't have to read that many posts before it becomes very obvious that one player wants automatic weapons and boundless love, another hopes for crazy stunts and nitro boosted turbo jumps, third desires monster trucks and crashing buildings and so on. They're all quite nice game elements, but including all of them wouldn't work. So, we can't design a game with the community. What we can do is choose a direction, work on it, present it, and do our absolute best to make it better with your feedback while still maintaining our own vision. In short, we are collaborating with the community. And it is very useful indeed! Like I said before, you all ground us and tell us when we screw up. And we love you for it.


BenDover said:
But noone was forcing him (that is, me, Jori, says He Who Has The Power of Edit) into sharing that but I can understand why he did that..
Well, I wanted you guys to see what it takes for me to renege on my promise :)
That, and procrastinating :p

What do you mean you can't have machine guns, nitro boosts, stunts, monster trucks and destroyable buildings? Integrating that into the game seems like a natural fit.

Incidentally I will try to include machine guns, missiles, explosives and explosions in all of my posts even if they never come to pass because I think they should (and they may modders right!)
 

Usmovers_02

Active Member
Full time wrecker
Chuck, it seems to me that we essentially agree. Yes when they got more money the scope of the game grew but it's still a semi realistic banger racing/derby game. I don't think BB has been perfect about this EA at all but I do believe they've been completely honest with us and are doing the best they can. It is their first EA after all. I'm sure if they do another they'll have learned plenty and have a plan in place to avoid the mistakes they've made with this one. I know this: In their position I'd likely be making the same mistakes and probably worse :p Hindsight is always 20/20.

BrianUK said:
Lari is right. I got way too carried away, and unintentionally put Jori in a tough position.

While it doesn't excuse my actions, I've had an awful couple of weeks at work and it has affected all parts of my life with regards to my temperament and the way I perceive things. I hold things very close to my chest and I don't talk to anyone when I'm under a lot of mental strain. After my post on Friday, I took the time to unwind and get my stress levels down and today I'm much happier, although things still aren't great at work. I went wild and played different games as well!

So, I'm deeply sorry for the way I've acted over the past few days, I needlessly put Jori in a crappy position and I've not been particularly pleasant.

So, yeah. My lunch break is over now. Bye!
Try not to worry about it. I do the same thing a LOT on other forums. I totally understand how outside things can easily influence the tone of critical posts.
 

Rektist

New Member
I wanted to add another suggestion (not about guns and explosions this time) to add a sound to the text in chat in lobby. If I minimize the game waiting for a race to finish a little ticking noise every time a msg is posted will alert me to the lobby being back up and the next race readying.

An alternative to this is to change the sound in lobby to engines revving, or a set music/song/jingle for the lobby. Something simple but audible and recognizable to return to the game.
 

Aruzo

New Member
Rektist said:
I wanted to add another suggestion (not about guns and explosions this time) to add a sound to the text in chat in lobby. If I minimize the game waiting for a race to finish a little ticking noise every time a msg is posted will alert me to the lobby being back up and the next race readying.

An alternative to this is to change the sound in lobby to engines revving, or a set music/song/jingle for the lobby. Something simple but audible and recognizable to return to the game.
+1 on this!

Its quite boring sometimes to join and wait for a 10 lap race to finish, so I too find myself browsing the internet in the mean while etc. Other option could be an indicator about which lap is going on in the race, so you could at least estimate how long it takes for the race to finish.
 

Frisker

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
Aruzo said:
Rektist said:
I wanted to add another suggestion (not about guns and explosions this time) to add a sound to the text in chat in lobby. If I minimize the game waiting for a race to finish a little ticking noise every time a msg is posted will alert me to the lobby being back up and the next race readying.

An alternative to this is to change the sound in lobby to engines revving, or a set music/song/jingle for the lobby. Something simple but audible and recognizable to return to the game.
+1 on this!

Its quite boring sometimes to join and wait for a 10 lap race to finish, so I too find myself browsing the internet in the mean while etc. Other option could be an indicator about which lap is going on in the race, so you could at least estimate how long it takes for the race to finish.
You'll be able to spectate the race in the next update.
 

crazychris4124

Member
Full time wrecker
I want Bugbear to release a perfect patch but I die a little inside when I check the forum to see if they released the patch only to see nothing. Would prefer if they released smaller patches more frequently that focus on issues with multiplayer, AI and other things that have nothing to do with physics. That way the game is more enjoyable while we wait for a major content update with improved physics, new tracks, new vehicles and new game modes. This game has a ton of potential to raise the bar for the racing genre.
 
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