Week #50: The Holiday Update

Conte Zero

Crash hard, then crash harder.
Full time wrecker
Lari Fari said:
And still: More time spent on the devlopment = better game.
Agree, but I sincerely hope this won't be set in stone on my tomb.
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
Its the same thing over and over again:

BB is silent for a while -> people start complaining as if they've lost all hope in life -> sooner or later there's an update.

Are people really that impatient? Is there nothing else to do? I'm really excited myself. But if BB needs some more weeks for an update. Thats just the way it is. Read a book! :D
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
GuitarJozz said:
I was only asking if they actually had a release date/time frame in mind, or if it was something where they were just going to keep working on it and working on it, without a definite release date, and then just release it when they feel it's done. I haven't read anything about when it will actually be released. I was just curious, that's all. I am hoping that it's sometime this year, maybe by next Christmas.

By no means was I meaning to sound rude, I was only wondering. I hope they do take their time, ironing out the wrinkles and squashing the bugs to make sure it's a polished gem, instead of a shiny turd. :D
Bugbear was aiming to release a final version of Wreckfest by the end of 2014, but then decided they needed to overhaul their ROMU game engine:

Purple44 said:
Purple44 said:
MSPORTBMW said:
:(
I was under the impression it was going to be this summer !!!.....However, im aware that bugbear changed the game engine so i was expecting a delay of some sort...but 2015??
I really hope not.
At least if it aint going to be done this year...please give us multiplayer soon.
There was talk of releasing a full feature Alpha this summer, but that was before Bugbear spent 2 months working on the overhaul of the ROMU engine.

About timeline now:

When is the game coming out?

Jori Virtanen said:
June 09, 2014
This is correct. We're still lacking, to name a few of the features, multiplayer, game modes, tech tree, XP progression, tune-ups, music, career mode, etc. We're working hard on all those, but it'll take time. We're definitely not holding back on the release date out of spite. We'll tell you when we know ourselves. We were gunning for the end of the year release, but since we're currently focusing on overhauling the engine, we can't be sure we'll make it. So, we'd rather not give any promises now as we might have to let you down, and that would simply suck.

Once we get to the point where we start implementing the new features to the game, that's where it'll start to be interesting. That's when you'll get to try to break our game in earnest, as that's what helps us debug NCG to the max. But we're not there yet :)
Here a post from Janne over at Steam forum today about releases dates:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/228380/discussions/0/613936673517449996/#p2


jannesBB;613936673604427379 said:
Sep 23
Exact release dates are dangerous especially if they're announced very early into the project because many things can and will change before the completion of the project, which is exactly what happened with Next Car Game.

Next Car Game was actually envisioned as a rather quick, small scale product, that we could take over the finish line with our old tech. The decision to rewrote major parts of our engine (including the core) was made early this year when we realized that there's a lot more demand for the game than we expected and that we're not going to be able to meet the expectations going forward with the original engine, it simply wasn't designed flexibly enough. Now that we have our new engine up and running we're in a good shape since there's much less internal dependencies between the different components of the engine and we can pretty freely shift stuff around or even perform major rewrites without breaking everything. Unfortunately this made it necessary to postpone the release date, but we're confident that in the end we (and of course, you) will have a better end product.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Saw new post by Jori today over at the Steam forum, might want to give it a read:

[url]http://steamcommunity.com/app/228380/discussions/0/620700960851390035/?tscn=1420694868[/url]

Jori;616198623977385050 said:
A few random comments:

1) Stay civil.
I'm honestly real proud of Winkyface and Frisker who did not sink further into flaming, but actually conceded points the other had and built a good discussion from that. Waytago, guys.
That's just an exception, though. I see plenty of bad behavior here, and that's the one thing that ticks me off. I don't mind if you rip into our work and call us on our drek, but daymn, people, do behave. You're better than that, smarter than that, and if you absolutely, positively have to drive your point home with a witty remark, at least use that wit to come up with something creative.
Sheesh :)



2) The difference between physics of e.g. Space Engineer and Wreckfest is a bigger story. I can't say for certain how SE's engine works as I have yet to play it (I should, I know, but I would totally get hooked on it, and I can't afford that kind of a time sink ;) ), but it seems -- on a quick glance, mind you -- that physics is not what the game is built on. Space Engineers doesn't break if it experiences even major physics bugs, as the game is all about sandboxing the living drek out of all things cool. (I would also like to point out that SE's dev staff is almost double of what we have. It doesn't in any way diminish the stellar work they're doing, but it's still a factor.)

Wreckfest, on the other hand, is reliant of the physics, and everything else is just dressing. If e.g. our soft body physics fail, we end up with a game nobody wants to play, because the physics make driving unenjoyable. The cars behave erratically, deform weirdly, and launch themselves in the air from a small pebble. All this has happened in the game, and that's what we're trying to fix, so that the end result is not a horrible mess of good ideas with unplayable execution.

Why it's so difficult can be boiled down to two things:

a) Everything affects everything. If we tune one setting somewhere, we can be absolutely certain that it'll have a major impact to many other settings. Let's say we adjust the friction factor of asphalt. The sedan might not encounter any trouble, and the euro coupe feels wonderful, but the small euro tuna can is now unplayable, because the friction doesn't work as it should for that car's settings. So you dig into that car and do some adjustments, but now its weight is off, and it's either a sluggish lummox or one twister of a car when you yank the wheel.
Of course, this is greatly oversimplifying things, but you should get the idea: everything affects everything, and it's all much more fragile than you'd think. And you can't release a build that makes the driving worse than the previous build has, even if you know it's only a temporary thing. That's why major updates take such an annoying long a time, and trust me, it bugs the heck out of us, too.

b) We built Wreckfest on the old version of our physics engine. The influx of money from overwhelming interest to the game when it was greenlit allowed us to do much better a game than we thought we would be able to, but it also meant we'd have to redo much of the old engine to support all we want to do. That took a sizable chunk of time that was off everything else, and to top that off, we still need to weed out bugs in the engine itself as well as try to work features in we had in the "original" build. Had we known what our budget would end up being, we would've retooled the engine first and then get the development going, but hindsight 20/20 is always an easy feat :)


The positive thing to physics discussion is that most of the hard work is already done. We've reworked the engine, wrestled major issues with handling down to the ground, and are working on the suspension/tire physics now. Once those are good enough, it'll allow us to focus on other features in earnest. It's like building a house -- you need to get the infrastructure right first, and before that's done, the house looks like it's been hit by a bomb. But when that bulk of work is done and you start slapping everything else in place, the work progresses so rapidly it looks like someone gave the house some steroids.


3) PR
Now this feedback is mostly very valid. We don't share things as earnestly and rapidly as many other studios do, but I don't believe we're one of the worst ones, either. Your points on this hits home especially to me, as this is mostly my domain :)
We'll try to do better. It should also get easier to create buzz when the physics are getting done and we work on other features -- there's only so many times you can get people enthused about the same physics we've been working on for so long already :D


4) Update speed
Well, after the latest major build a few months ago, we released ten (10!!!) hotfixes in the space of few weeks, which is, in my humble opinion, not bad, not bad at all. But when the work on those was done and it was time to focus on bigger physics changes, you cannot release stuff in the middle of the process. It would break the game, and we don't want to do that.
Again, when the physics are in good shape, it'll be a faster process to do updates to the game.


Gotta go get lunch now. I'll get back on this later on :)

Thanks for your post Jori. :)
 

Fisu

Member
I turn this to upside down and show other side of the coin. Stay civil to your fans/customers and inform acceptable schedules and do not promise or give hopes if you doupt it. Bug fixes for last update made well but do not be too proud to fix bugs what you did not see in own tests ;)

I think I get lot of disagrees and some civil guys says me as an whiner, but what a hell, some had to say nasty things. I still love what you are doing. Only this never end story is a little bit frustrating. Maybe you just released pre-alpha half year too early.
 

Iwasawa

Member
Weeked Smasher
Speaking of overhauling the engine. We still not saw any sparks, door pysics or new feathure which is releated to romu engine.
 

crazychris4124

Member
Full time wrecker
Fisu said:
I turn this to upside down and show other side of the coin. Stay civil to your fans/customers and inform acceptable schedules and do not promise or give hopes if you doupt it. Bug fixes for last update made well but do not be too proud to fix bugs what you did not see in own tests ;)

I think I get lot of disagrees and some civil guys says me as an whiner, but what a hell, some had to say nasty things. I still love what you are doing. Only this never end story is a little bit frustrating. Maybe you just released pre-alpha half year too early.
they had to release it, they were having financial problems since the kickstarter failed and they werent getting enough pre orders off their site
 
B

BrianUK

Guest
Fisu said:
I turn this to upside down and show other side of the coin. Stay civil to your fans/customers and inform acceptable schedules and do not promise or give hopes if you doupt it. Bug fixes for last update made well but do not be too proud to fix bugs what you did not see in own tests ;)

I think I get lot of disagrees and some civil guys says me as an whiner, but what a hell, some had to say nasty things. I still love what you are doing. Only this never end story is a little bit frustrating. Maybe you just released pre-alpha half year too early.
Believe me, constructive criticism is a breath of fresh air compared to the Steam forums.
 

freddy

New Member
BrianUK said:
I'm not even disappointed. You guys have come a long way since I bought into the pre-alpha early this year
....
Thanks for everything you have done this year, guys. You have given me in excess of 200 hours of fun in a game that has comparably little content simply because the basis for the game is so well done.

Same for me. The game is already fantastic and my only fear is if they will eventually screw up the game with some future patch. Unfortunately I ve seen that before :'(
 

Ryan Callan

New Member
Still not progressing at the speed it should be, quite frankly. Not impressed.

It feels like 'we've got their money so we'll do the work at quarter speed'. I'm not saying that's how it is, but is what it feels like.
 
M

Mopower

Guest
Ryan Callan said:
Still not progressing at the speed it should be, quite frankly. Not impressed.

It feels like 'we've got their money so we'll do the work at quarter speed'. I'm not saying that's how it is, but is what it feels like.
Okay, how fast should they be progressing? You consider this quarter speed? So you're saying they ought to have been done only 6 months after their tech demo release? Who are they? Freaking Rockstar, working on the same stupid mechanics they've built off for the last 5 or 10 games they've released? No, they aren't. And it's going to be a lot better result.
 

SoHigh

New Member
Oh god, you people saying Bugbear is developing the game too slow really annoy the hell out of me...Do you really want a rushed piece of garbage game like all AAA games this past year? I mean look at AC Unity, look at Watch Dogs, look at Battlefield 4 look at fucking PS4 Tetris!!!...how can you even screw up tetris, Ubisoft?!? Do you really want that with Wreckfest? Just be patient, it's not likey are developing this game for 10 years...If that would be the case then I would unerstand your concerns...but it's not. Developing a game based as much on physics as Wreckfest takes time...it's the way it is...especially if you want a decent outcome. I hope you take all time you need to make this game an even more fun experience. Don't rush it and most importantly, have fun at what you are doing!!
 

RagingRoach67

Member
Master Blaster
SoHigh said:
Oh god, you people saying Bugbear is developing the game too slow really annoy the hell out of me...Do you really want a rushed piece of garbage game like all AAA games this past year? ...Developing a game based as much on physics as Wreckfest takes time...it's the way it is...especially if you want a decent outcome. I hope you take all time you need to make this game an even more fun experience. Don't rush it and most importantly, have fun at what you are doing!!
Just playing devils advocate - what if they take too much time and the funds dry up? Unless they have secured other funding, then all we get is nothing more than a glorified demo. I am all for them doing it right and making sure it is the best it can be. But not having an insight into the release date, even if it may shift, is a bit worrysome. I just want to know they have some target they are pushing towards.

But truthfully, I am not too worried about it. I only check the News section a couple times a week just to see if there is any update. I am not going out of my mind waiting for the final game. I have a big enough back catalog that I know when this does drop, it will be there waiting for me. Until then, back to Steam!
 

sam223

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
RagingRoach67 said:
SoHigh said:
Oh god, you people saying Bugbear is developing the game too slow really annoy the hell out of me...Do you really want a rushed piece of garbage game like all AAA games this past year? ...Developing a game based as much on physics as Wreckfest takes time...it's the way it is...especially if you want a decent outcome. I hope you take all time you need to make this game an even more fun experience. Don't rush it and most importantly, have fun at what you are doing!!
Just playing devils advocate - what if they take too much time and the funds dry up? Unless they have secured other funding, then all we get is nothing more than a glorified demo. I am all for them doing it right and making sure it is the best it can be. But not having an insight into the release date, even if it may shift, is a bit worrysome. I just want to know they have some target they are pushing towards.

But truthfully, I am not too worried about it. I only check the News section a couple times a week just to see if there is any update. I am not going out of my mind waiting for the final game. I have a big enough back catalog that I know when this does drop, it will be there waiting for me. Until then, back to Steam!
At a guess,theyve probably made enough money already to fund this game and start another after. And with no publisher its all in bugbears pocket.
 

Mohasz

Member
Weeked Smasher
Full time wrecker
sam223 said:
At a guess,theyve probably made enough money already to fund this game and start another after. And with no publisher its all in bugbears pocket.
Are you sure about that? Yes, they're not a particularly big studio, but did the game really sell that well?
 

Needles Kane

Member
Weeked Smasher
Mohasz said:
sam223 said:
At a guess,theyve probably made enough money already to fund this game and start another after. And with no publisher its all in bugbears pocket.
Are you sure about that? Yes, they're not a particularly big studio, but did the game really sell that well?
I think it sell well. It was many weeks on top sellers on Steam when it was released. Everytime when there is discount WF rises back to near the top of the list. It's still on top 5 of racing games and in place 232 of all games.
 

sam223

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
Mohasz said:
sam223 said:
At a guess,theyve probably made enough money already to fund this game and start another after. And with no publisher its all in bugbears pocket.
Are you sure about that? Yes, they're not a particularly big studio, but did the game really sell that well?
I think so,dont quote me on this as it was a long time ago.But im sure someone said theyd already made over $1,000,000 early last year in sales.
 

Mohasz

Member
Weeked Smasher
Full time wrecker
sam223 said:
I think so,dont quote me on this as it was a long time ago.But im sure someone said theyd already made over $1,000,000 early last year in sales.
Does that amount count as 'much' in game development? I hope it will be more than enough. I know huge games can eat up dozens of millions of dollars but Wreckfest and BB is sure not in the same category.
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
Reportedly, very early in the Early Access phase they made 1 million in revenue in just one week.

I am just guessing, but I would say they have many millions in revenue in their account. This should keep them running for a while. And sales are still pretty good I think. So no worries here.
 
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