Weekly Report #10

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
Simple. You have only ONE career. I play online most of the time. But what if late some night there are no servers with enough players near me. Then I can just start my own event or choose an offline event drom a list. Then I can continue in my career offline until theres a server up, or a slot becomes free in a running server.
 

Cono

Member
Lari Fari said:
Simple. You have only ONE career. I play online most of the time. But what if late some night there are no servers with enough players near me. Then I can just start my own event or choose an offline event drom a list. Then I can continue in my career offline until theres a server up, or a slot becomes free in a running server.
Yes, I understand that you could do that.
But how this would be any better or more fun than separate SP/MP?
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
Well, after half a year of multiplayer career advancement, cars, upgrades and what not I decide to play a race of singlepleyer career. But I won't want to start at 0 to do it. So its a good thing the two are connected and I can just race my cars AND advance my career offline.
 

St. Jimmy

Finland
Full time wrecker
Doesn't Forza Motorsport have offline & online credits together? Are there much cheats and hacks on that? It could be a thing if it's well secured.
 

Peyko

Member
Would bugbear be able to port/recreate some of The best Classic tracks from FO2?


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Matrix404

Member
If I want to start my single player life over will that be possible? What happens if I want to approach my single player life differently then what I do in multiple layer?
 

Cornkid

Yada Yada - Actions speak louder
Full time wrecker
Peyko said:
Would bugbear be able to port/recreate some of The best Classic tracks from FO2?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not really, as the rights for those tracks belong to publishers who own that game.

The name flatout, the cars, track and stuff cant be repeated as a dir4ect copy.

Hopefully BB will include similar tracks with enough variety to avoid a law suit ;)

Come back crash alley, all is forgiven even if it means you are called crush dalley and have an extra turn ;)
 

Cornkid

Yada Yada - Actions speak louder
Full time wrecker
Matrix404 said:
If I want to start my single player life over will that be possible? What happens if I want to approach my single player life differently then what I do in multiple layer?
I believe that BB are trying to integrate SP and MP, so as such there may not be a "Single Player" thats seperate to "Multi"

Its still early days in design of game, so who knows.

I have a feeling that BB would like you to be more focused on whats in your garage than where you drive it, as in if you own a certain car, you could use it in either .
 
M

Mopower

Guest
Lari Fari said:
Simple. You have only ONE career. I play online most of the time. But what if late some night there are no servers with enough players near me. Then I can just start my own event or choose an offline event drom a list. Then I can continue in my career offline until theres a server up, or a slot becomes free in a running server.

Thanks for laying it out there Lary. I believe this is Bugbear's exact motive. So that people can go on or offline with their own stuff.

And personally, I want to be able to have my career online so that I can feel like I'm not beating a computer, but I"m beating people. Also, as Lari said, it'd be great if late at night I want to do some derbies but there's no lobbies for it open. (I have crappy upload so can't really host) So I just go do some singleplayer stuff and I can continue with ease on my career build for multiplayer.
 

Frisker

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
St. Jimmy said:
Doesn't Forza Motorsport have offline & online credits together? Are there much cheats and hacks on that? It could be a thing if it's well secured.
I think it's safe to say that for console games(Forza is Xbox only) there are less hackers. Majority of people who create mods/cracks are on PC platform, so I think that it's one of the reasons that there are more trainers and mods for PC games too. I have no facts, and I'm just assumpting, you may prove me wrong.

Peyko said:
Would bugbear be able to port/recreate some of The best Classic tracks from FO2?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They can't, as they're licensed for Flatout, and Bugbear doesn't own the rights for them.

Mopower said:
Lari Fari said:
Simple. You have only ONE career. I play online most of the time. But what if late some night there are no servers with enough players near me. Then I can just start my own event or choose an offline event drom a list. Then I can continue in my career offline until theres a server up, or a slot becomes free in a running server.

Thanks for laying it out there Lary. I believe this is Bugbear's exact motive. So that people can go on or offline with their own stuff.

And personally, I want to be able to have my career online so that I can feel like I'm not beating a computer, but I"m beating people. Also, as Lari said, it'd be great if late at night I want to do some derbies but there's no lobbies for it open. (I have crappy upload so can't really host) So I just go do some singleplayer stuff and I can continue with ease on my career build for multiplayer.
I do see the good points in combined multiplayer/single player career, but for me career mode is kinda supposed to be single player. I'm not completely opposite to seamless online/single player career, but I guess I'm somewhat against it, since I'm kinda used to the fact that in career modes, you're usually the best. You're the one winning, or almost winning the races - the star. Online, you have to really work on that, I mean, you have to have actual talent to be the best. I know I don't have that in me, and it would be nice to get some first places too sometimes - even if it's against bots. But I do love the challenge, I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be an actual challenge to get to first, but not Brian/BenDover challenge. Not everyone in real life can be star in racing, yeah, but don't forget that it's just a game.

Yeah, you could play only single player with the seamless career too, but then again after every race I would ask myself: "Why am I racing against bots since I can race against real people too?". It would kill the reason to play against computer, since there wouldn't be any difference to it. Except it's AI.
So what'd be the point in personalized AI? There's online that progresses your singleplayer anyway! There would be simply no reason to even create single player anymore, or atleast a decent one.

I love Flatout 2 and Ultimate Carnage, but I have never played them online. I still play them from time to time, but I wouldn't want to play them online, as it'd kill the reason for SP. I love the career structure in those games, and I'd like something as addictive in Wreckfest, and the calendar based system could provide it.

I can't really explain how I feel, I'm not too good at words, but I would just like an actual single player - not just online. There's a reason why I never buy games that are intended as online-only.

(Sorry Brian and Ben for using you as examples here, but it seemed reasonable to get my point properly through.)
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Offline career mode is for 3 weeks ( at least that what it took me to do career mode in Flatout 1 and GRID 1 ). Online non-career is for years to come ( 6 yrs for FO2 and 3 yrs for GRID 1 until their online servers were turned off ).

Bugbear has talk about trying to extend the life of career mode. Maybe online career mode will help with that.

I will stick to the offline career for a few weeks where I can eventually beat the AI and race a little rougher than how I would online. I have no problem knocking AI into a container, especially if AI is Sophia. I do hope at least some of the AI have a "personality" like we saw in Flatout 2.

I'm curious how Bugbear will handle online career and how players earn money to buy their parts and pay for the damage of their car online? Online career mode, most players are going have a harder time winning against good players and if those players have better upgraded cars.

If average player doing good to get a 4th, will player get enough money to make it worth while to race online or will player slowly go broke just racing online? I'm thinking the average player may have to do offline to earn the money needed to buy and upgrade that car that has caught his\her eye in Wreckfest and then give online career mode a try and see how player does against good real players online.

I'm thinking the average player may have a hard time enjoying just doing online career mode if they have a hard time getting a podium finish in a 16-24 player race. I assume the pot of money to be pass out to the players in a race or derby will scale depending on how many players start the race?

Will a player get some $$ if finish 12th in a 24 player race or derby? At 13th or lower, you get nothing? If get DNF in a race, do you get any $$. I've seen oval races where only a few players finish the race. Will a 10 lap oval race pay more than a 5 lap race?

Offline I assume in career mode, there no changing the lap count ( what about how many AI? ), will that be the same in online career mode? Will all races and derbys match the same settings of offline career mode? Or will you let online career host make changes, what track or derby, lap count, how many players can join host?

Hmm, if AI bots are going to be online, will they be use in career mode? If so, will a race or derby be set to a minimum of at least 2 real players and 6 AI bots so there at least 8 cars in a race or derby in a online career mode? Will offline career mode allow player to only do a 8 car race or derby? I doubt you can force all offline players to do 24 car race or derby since some player's computers can not handle 23 bots and keep FPS above 30.

Did not mean to ask so many questions, but they kept coming as I was typing! Would seem there a lot of decisions to be made by Bugbear on how to do career mode when there more than 7-11 AI bots ( FO1 & 2 and UC ) :p
 
M

Mopower

Guest
I know, singleplayer career is the norm for most racing games, and games in general. But, and I know I'm going to catch a little flak for this, I absolutely enjoy playing MMO's where your career is how well you do against the people in real life. Yes, there's going to be singleplayer, and from the sounds of it, you're able to do singleplayer career. I don't see how having a seamless career mode could hurt singleplayer. If anything it just enhances multiplayer. Singleplayer will get the same benefits that multiplayer get, so I don't understand why people who want to just play against bots complain about it.
 

Lari Fari

Gaming Since 1989
Frisker said:
I do see the good points in combined multiplayer/single player career, but for me career mode is kinda supposed to be single player.
[SNIPPED]
Well, at the beginning of that post you said, tht you are against online/offline semless career. But during most of your text you gave arguments for it... Did you realize it would be better while writing that? :D

Because yeah, I know what you mean about being the star of the game. Thats what most games ever were about. And thats exactly what you can do from time to time whenever you feel like it. While mostly playing online against humans, because ... well thats just how gaming works these days. Most people have decent internet connection and a flatrate. And playing online is just so much better :D

I remember, sometime between counterstrike 1.1 and 1.3 (can't remember exactly). It was a time when internet was "new" and flatrates were unknown (at least to me) ;-) We figured out how to add bots to CS and played like that for weeks and months. Somewhere around that time steam was introduced (or at least it as new to me. Quick wiki-check: released for windows in 2003. yeah sounds about right). And suddenly, playing CS online was the easiest thing to do. I never looked back and can't remember playing with bots ever again. Same thing happened with unreal tournament at some point.

Racing games took a little longer. But I think the time has come to have an online racing career! And because I'm aware not everybody can do it, or wants to do it, the integrated seemless online/offline version is just the best idea ever! :D
 
Purple44 said:
I do hope at least some of the AI have a "personality" like we saw in Flatout 2.
So far the talk has been having your SP career opponents to be asynchronous driving profiles of real human players, like it's in Forza 5, Forza Horizon 2 etc. So they will have personality but they just won't be arbitrarily named computer AI. I know many liked the opponents from Flatout but they also don't feel like real opponents and then there's always the silent voice in the back of your head telling that you are playing against non-living opponents in a video game. Which is not a bad thing per se, but not the experience we're after. I hope you see what I mean.

Purple44 said:
I'm curious how Bugbear will handle online career and how players earn money to buy their parts and pay for the damage of their car online? Online career mode, most players are going have a harder time winning against good players and if those players have better upgraded cars.
I'm not a designer at Bugbear so the final call will be made by Jori & co, but my 2 cents, like already said in this thread, is that MP rewards should be somewhat higher due several reasons like added difficulty, delay from starting next race, inability to restart etc.

Purple44 said:
I assume the pot of money to be pass out to the players in a race or derby will scale depending on how many players start the race?
Exactly. AI opponents also add to the pot, not just as much as human players, unless the AI difficulty is compareable to human players, which remains to be seen. The amounts of money every player/AI adds to the pot will be decided and tuned later with lots of playtesting for economy balance. It's not rocket science. :)

Purple44 said:
Will a player get some $$ if finish 12th in a 24 player race or derby? At 13th or lower, you get nothing? If get DNF in a race, do you get any $$.
Again, not my call but my hunch is that every participant will get their share of the pot of money, depending on their finishing position, whether it's 13th or 24th and DNF.

Purple44 said:
I've seen oval races where only a few players finish the race. Will a 10 lap oval race pay more than a 5 lap race?
Good question. My opinion is that lap counts could affect the size of the pot, because the more laps you have, the more damaged your car might be, so the more expensive the repairs will be. But it's not that straightforward, because you could have 60 laps race with your friends and just drive carefully without damaging your car at all. Or in clean racing servers you don't even have to "cheat", everyone will drive more carefully anyway. But I believe Jori will handle this issue well among others.

Purple44 said:
Offline I assume in career mode, there no changing the lap count ( what about how many AI? ), will that be the same in online career mode? Will all races and derbys match the same settings of offline career mode? Or will you let online career host make changes, what track or derby, lap count, how many players can join host?
Both online and offline events are the same, you can create completely your own event with your own lap counts, amounts of AI, how many human players can join if any (Note that the player will decide the total amount of opponents based on the performance their computer can handle, and then the human players will "override" the AI if it's open for public) etc. rules. In the event selection screen we will give you ability to create that own event, we show you currently online servers and then selection of pre-made events (think of them as quick settings, so you don't have to go through creating an event) from which you can choose and when you select one, you can also decide are you going to host it for other human players or do you just go race against AI. I hope we can show you a sketch of how it might look like in the upcoming blog posts so you get better idea what I mean.

Purple44 said:
Hmm, if AI bots are going to be online, will they be use in career mode? If so, will a race or derby be set to a minimum of at least 2 real players and 6 AI bots so there at least 8 cars in a race or derby in a online career mode? Will offline career mode allow player to only do a 8 car race or derby? I doubt you can force all offline players to do 24 car race or derby since some player's computers can not handle 23 bots and keep FPS above 30.
Can't say about details yet, they're Jori's concern. 1v1 derby in my mind is not out of the question if someone really wants to do it, so forcing a minimum amount of players/AI is not mandatory in my opinion. But I'll let Jori decide. :)

Hope these answers clarified some of the issues.
 

Frisker

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
Lari Fari said:
Frisker said:
I do see the good points in combined multiplayer/single player career, but for me career mode is kinda supposed to be single player.
[SNIPPED]
Well, at the beginning of that post you said, tht you are against online/offline semless career. But during most of your text you gave arguments for it... Did you realize it would be better while writing that? :D
Guess I forgot that midway through :D
I'd had one too many beers while writing that one. lol.
 

Cono

Member
Tero said:
Both online and offline events are the same, you can create completely your own event with your own lap counts, amounts of AI, how many human players can join if any
This sounds and feels like: "Play MP alone with AI".
Glad I'm nowadays into MP myself, because it will be ridiculously easy to choose MP over this SP.

There would be an easy fix, that would solve many of these problems:
- Separate SP and MP.
- Pre-select tracks for SP career.
- Pre-select AI opponents for SP career.
- Pre-select track order (Map 1, Map 2, Map 3 etc.)
- Allow restart.

This would be good SP experience that is designed by BB.
Not a big difference, but massive impact.

It will be painfully hard to get this seamless SP/MP thing work.
I'm pretty sure that result will be Wreckfest Online, that maybe isn't THAT bad thing, because there's plenty of successful "online only" games and Wreckfest could easily to be the next Counter Strike of Racing :)

Good luck and tons of best wishes for getting things right!
 

Frisker

Active Member
Weeked Smasher
Cono said:
Tero said:
Both online and offline events are the same, you can create completely your own event with your own lap counts, amounts of AI, how many human players can join if any
This sounds and feels like: "Play MP alone with AI".
That's the wording I was after. I mean, it'd feel like Counter Strike, you can play it alone against bots, but what's the point? Is there anyone who actually does that? Since there's no real point to it.

Sure the difference between CS and Wreckfest would be that in CS there isn't any career mode or anything, just matches. But I hope you get my point :p
 

Cono

Member
Frisker said:
Cono said:
Tero said:
Both online and offline events are the same, you can create completely your own event with your own lap counts, amounts of AI, how many human players can join if any
This sounds and feels like: "Play MP alone with AI".
That's the wording I was after. I mean, it'd feel like Counter Strike, you can play it alone against bots, but what's the point? Is there anyone who actually does that? Since there's no real point to it.

Sure the difference between CS and Wreckfest would be that in CS there isn't any career mode or anything, just matches. But I hope you get my point :p
This is a serious problem and bothers me alot.
Hope BB's developers and designers won't completely ignore this problem.
Of course time is valuable and maybe there just isn't enough time to focus both.
But then it maybe better focus to online MP only and forget crippled SP.
Then design would have clear focus and SP wouldn't hold it back.
Or maybe this already is the case?

EDIT: It's also possible that we just don't know enough at this point.
 
It's not crippled, it's just different to what's generally considered conventional in racing games. Personally I don't see how the arbitrarily chosen tracks and forced progression in common SP careers are any better, apart from that they are familiar and safe (also dull).

With this system, you have more freedom of choice to play however you choose, on the tracks of your choice. For example you are not forced to play a single derby if that's not your cup of tea and still you get money/xp to advance your career, buy new cars, new parts, new paints etc.

We didn't want to create always online game, that's why you can still play like you would in MP but without the requirement of online connection. The career has been inspired from World of Tanks, War Thunder etc. from the beginning, but unlike those games, we understand not everyone wants to play online, so we've included the option to play it offline too, thus the seamless SP/MP career.

The feeling we're after is owning your own garage/team, and ability choose your battles with your gear. The sole purpose of this is to give the player the freedom, like you would have in real life. You have your cars of choice, and you use them as you see fit, you participate to events you want to, without the game forcing you to do things you don't like. How is this not better?
 

kamikave

Member
Full time wrecker
Tero said:
The feeling we're after is owning your own garage/team, and ability choose your battles with your gear. The sole purpose of this is to give the player the freedom, like you would have in real life. You have your cars of choice, and you use them as you see fit, you participate to events you want to, without the game forcing you to do things you don't like. How is this not better?
For that kind of things, I always go back to Destruction Derby 2, where there are tracks I'm good at, and tracks I suck at, and the whole point of a season, is to win the tracks you're good at, and improve the ones you suck at.
Point is, if I have too much choice, I may never play challenging tracks. I could say the same for FlatOut 2 by the way. I'd play only city tracks.
 
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