Weekly Report #10

Cono

Member
Tero said:
It's not crippled, it's just different to what's generally considered conventional in racing games. Personally I don't see how the arbitrarily chosen tracks and forced progression in common SP careers are any better, apart from that they are familiar and safe (also dull). With this system, you have more freedom of choice to play however you choose, on the tracks of your choice.
All tracks unlocked from the start sounds a bit dull.
It's all about motivation. You play easy levels to open new harder levels. You feel the progression.
Of course you wouldn't choose those tracks arbitrarily?

What do you think, if beginners/rookies would have less unlocked maps in online too, then this seamless career would work? :)
Beginners would practice with other beginners.
At least there should be those leagues from Starcraft, if beginners would like to win sometimes (that motivation) and then pros could play easier levels with other pros.
Then there would be one motivating factor more, because you could try to unlock next league.
This would open many possibilities like C-class racing where pros are fighting together.

Of course this isn't flawless neither, because if you're worst in Diamond league you'll wish to drop back to Gold and be a winner sometimes :)

Tero said:
For example you are not forced to play a single derby if that's not your cup of tea and still you get money/xp to advance your career, buy new cars, new parts, new paints etc.
There could (SHOULD) be separated derby career and racing career.
 
Cono said:
All tracks unlocked from the start sounds a bit dull.
Track unlocks might not be completely out of the question, but as you know, we're not a large studio, so there won't be as many tracks as there are in other AAA racing games. The difficulty curve comes from car classes more than tracks themselves. With D class "moped", any track will be relatively easy to drive, thus suitable for beginners. The challenge comes when you drive the same track 125 mph / 200 km/h with A class car.

Leagues and alike are a possibility, but it depends if it fits the vision. We'll see.

Cono said:
There could be separate SP derby career and SP racing career.
We don't want to divide the game (and the players) with restrictions like that, we want to give the option to the players but with all the choices available. Your garage and car parts is the main focus here, what kind of cars you build defines what kind of career you will have. Obviously you won't take your precious, top of the line racing car to the derby arena, so you buy yourself some junk and modify it with bull bars etc. to suit the derbying, if you want to derby at all that is.
 

Fisu

Member
Tero said:
the same track 125 mph / 200 km/h with A class car.
Hopefully km/h is the correct measure in this. Top speed is allways hard to drive becouse car does not have torque. So, do not underestimate slow car's too easy. Curve speed is allmost the same. There is not much to do with horse powers. If car has torque enough, speed at curve is based on grip (came also from torque) and cars weight.
 

findRED

Member
Full time wrecker
Tero said:
Cono said:
All tracks unlocked from the start sounds a bit dull.
Track unlocks might not be completely out of the question, but as you know, we're not a large studio, so there won't be as many tracks as there are in other AAA racing games. The difficulty curve comes from car classes more than tracks themselves. With D class "moped", any track will be relatively easy to drive, thus suitable for beginners. The challenge comes when you drive the same track 125 mph / 200 km/h with A class car.

Leagues and alike are a possibility, but it depends if it fits the vision. We'll see.

Cono said:
There could be separate SP derby career and SP racing career.
We don't want to divide the game (and the players) with restrictions like that, we want to give the option to the players but with all the choices available. Your garage and car parts is the main focus here, what kind of cars you build defines what kind of career you will have. Obviously you won't take your precious, top of the line racing car to the derby arena, so you buy yourself some junk and modify it with bull bars etc. to suit the derbying, if you want to derby at all that is.
I feel like I need to reference Hot Rod: American Street Drag again as an example of a career that, In my opinion, worked very well.

Basically, you had 2 event choices (and remember this game was only about drag racing), you could race any one of the local guys at any location you had unlocked, or you could sign up for a tournament that took place on Sunday only. The key here is that the local guys were always around to race. The tournaments changed from game month to month, and there was even a month in which No tournaments were scheduled. This is something I would like to see in Wreckfest in some form or another. This setup would IMO help the sp career be a bit better than just a "race-repair-upgrade-repeat." The tournaments is where the car classes and other "restrictions" or rules would come into play to make the racing tighter (like having a only B class Euro tournament)... OR where it was an all-out balls-to-the-walls race (or derby too!) And finally, having a tournament for only the Best-of-the-Best that everyone would strive to become the Best Driver of All in.

Oh, and here's the original Hot Rod Career topic I started... http://community.bugbeargames.com/index.php/topic,4662.msg39088.html#msg39088
 
M

Mopower

Guest
And we have to derby junk with shit parts? Man, you guys don't watch what goes into those high end derby cars. 10 to 15k on a drivetrain pretty easy
 
M

Mopower

Guest
Tero, read my last post. And to everyone else, the reason you play singleplayer career is because you don't want to play multiplayer career. Just like in cs, you play multiplayer matches instead of ai matches. Which one is better? Multiplayer. Why is it better? You're playing against real people. So what?-what could possibly be the issue with choosing whether you want multiplayer or single player carer? Who cares if you're the only one playing singleplayer, it's not like you lose bots for singleplayer because they had to go play multiplayer career.

So explain to me what negatives there are to haVing a single player career. If you don't think they should be seamless, pretend they aren't and just play singleplayer career without coming into multiplayer. How is that so hard to figure out? The rest of us will play single or multi career with ease and enjoy ourselves
 
Mopower said:
And we have to derby junk with shit parts? Man, you guys don't watch what goes into those high end derby cars. 10 to 15k on a drivetrain pretty easy
It wasn't meant to be taken literally :) I'm sure we will also have expensive parts for derby cars too.

What I meant was that if you own both of these cars below, you wouldn't take car like this to the derby



but a car like this



The point is, we want to let you profile your cars and customize them to fit the playstyle you prefer, both internally (parts) and externally (paint, decals, etc.).
 

Cono

Member
Mopower said:
Just line in cs, you play multiplayer matches instead of ai matches. Which one is better? Multiplayer.
I can see that you are focused to online playing.

It really doesn't have to be this way.
There's many excellent single player games out there and no Counter Strike isn't one of them.

It depends how much love single player experience will get.

Mopower said:
what could possibly be the issue with choosing whether you want multiplayer our single player carer?
It really depends how BB will develop this.

Eg. if all tracks are unlocked from the start, then seamless career will motivate us to play online, because it's just more fun than playing SP without proper progression. SP without proper progression is like playing CS alone against bots.

If all tracks aren't unlocked from the start, then progression would be like in many other racing games.
Finish in top three and unlock next harder track.

Of course there could be many other styles to create progression than this.

But why this is so important:
Cono said:
It's all about motivation. You play easy levels to open new harder levels. You feel the progression.
Either way there's a risk that one or the other will suffer.
This is the reason why I originally have said that the SP and MP should be separated.
One solution could be that online is delivered first and proper SP career later (DLC or expansion pack).
 

Keras

Member
Full time wrecker
Tero said:
What I meant was that if you own both of these cars below, you wouldn't take car like this to the derby

But if I want to I could take such car into a derby right?
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Cono said:
One solution could be that online is delivered first and proper SP career later (DLC or expansion pack).
That would not work, the single player players would be at Bugbear door, pounding on it!!!! If Werckfest did not have single player career mode in final release version of Wreckfest!


 
findRED said:
I feel like I need to reference Hot Rod: American Street Drag again as an example of a career that, In my opinion, worked very well.
We've played Hot Rod and while there are interesting designs there, we don't want to restrict players with a linear flow like a literal calendar or championship (this might change but current vision is somewhat like this).

It's more about living the life.

When you go to event selection, there will be single events, there will be tournaments, and you can play them all solo or with other players online. But it's you who decide which event you want to go to today, with car(s) you want to drive with.

If we also have xp for each car for certain unlocks, that's (part of) your progress and something to aim for, similar to playing with certain class in Battlefield to unlock more guns and gear to that class. We have other designs in mind too but I won't spoil you with all at once. :) It's not going to be "race-repair-upgrade-repeat" without any purpose.
 
Keras said:
But if I want to I could take such car into a derby right?
Yes, of course. They are yours to use how you wish. But if you join with race setup, you would get beaten up if other players join the derby with cars that has reinforced chassis with steel beams, bull bars, etc. which increase their weight and survivability. Ideally if you wished to join a derby with that particular car, you would only use the body, but then modify it with derby parts to make it more heavy and durable and finish it off with some badass derby paint. :) We aim to a scenario where you have multiple cars in your garage, some finished, some in project/building stage so there's nice variation to choose from based on your personal preference on that particular day.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Tero said:
Keras said:
But if I want to I could take such car into a derby right?
Yes, of course. They are yours to use how you wish. But if you join with race setup, you would get beaten up if other players join the derby with cars that has reinforced chassis with steel beams, bull bars, etc. which increase their weight and survivability. Ideally if you wished to join a derby with that particular car, you would only use the body, but then modify it with derby parts to make it more heavy and durable and finish it off with some badass derby paint. :) We aim to a scenario where you have multiple cars in your garage, some finished, some in project/building stage so there's nice variation to choose from based on your personal preference on that particular day.

Hmm, that give me a question, can I save two versions of this car then in career mode?



One race version ( may need 3 versions for tarmac, dirt and snow setups ) and one derby version? Or will I have to take the time to swap in derby parts to go derbying, then swap back race parts to go racing?
 

Fisu

Member
Purple44 said:
Tero said:
Keras said:
But if I want to I could take such car into a derby right?
Yes, of course. They are yours to use how you wish. But if you join with race setup, you would get beaten up if other players join the derby with cars that has reinforced chassis with steel beams, bull bars, etc. which increase their weight and survivability. Ideally if you wished to join a derby with that particular car, you would only use the body, but then modify it with derby parts to make it more heavy and durable and finish it off with some badass derby paint. :) We aim to a scenario where you have multiple cars in your garage, some finished, some in project/building stage so there's nice variation to choose from based on your personal preference on that particular day.

Hmm, that give me a question, can I save two versions of this car then in career mode?



One race version ( may need 3 versions for tarmac, dirt and snow setups ) and one derby version? Or will I have to take the time to swap in derby parts to go derbying, then swap back race parts to go racing?
Dusty Tarmac/Dirt/Gravel/Snow is the same in low price racing. Some little changes to suspensions only.
 
Purple44 said:
Hmm, that give me a question, can I save two versions of this car then in career mode?

One race version ( may need 3 versions for tarmac, dirt and snow setups ) and one derby version? Or will I have to take the time to swap in derby parts to go derbying, then swap back race parts to go racing?
It depends. There's no definite answer yet, sorry. We've been talking about saving setups for easy switching of parts before race, but switching between derby and race setups... maybe, maybe not. The problem with it is that afaik (I'm not a gear head) in real life you make quite radical changes to the car, and some of them are pretty permanent, like making the frame more light weight (for racing) or more durable (for derby). They are not the changes you would expect a garage crew being able to do at the pit area of a race/derby. So in that light, I think what we want is you to own two cars, one for racing and one for derbying if you want to best perfomance from both. And within that car you could have different quickly changeable setups for different tracks/playstyles.
 

Purple44

Well-Known Member
Team Bugbear Member
Tero said:
Purple44 said:
Hmm, that give me a question, can I save two versions of this car then in career mode?

One race version ( may need 3 versions for tarmac, dirt and snow setups ) and one derby version? Or will I have to take the time to swap in derby parts to go derbying, then swap back race parts to go racing?
It depends. There's no definite answer yet, sorry. We've been talking about saving setups for easy switching of parts before race, but switching between derby and race setups... maybe, maybe not. The problem with it is that afaik (I'm not a gear head) in real life you make quite radical changes to the car, and some of them are pretty permanent, like making the frame more light weight (for racing) or more durable (for derby). They are not the changes you would expect a garage crew being able to do at the pit area of a race/derby. So in that light, I think what we want is you to own two cars, one for racing and one for derbying if you want to best perfomance from both. And within that car you could have different quickly changeable setups for different tracks/playstyles.
That be fine with me, but would game let me own two 1973 "Nova"s? Or would derby car have be a different car from my racing car?
 
Purple44 said:
That be fine with me, but would game let me own two 1973 "Nova"s? Or would derby car have be a different car from my racing car?
I think you could own as many 1973 Novas as you please. I'm just guessing here but I don't think we'll restrict car models from game's side to certain profiles, it's you who chooses which model to modify (possibly permanently) to fit a certain type of racing, whether it's clean driving, banger race or demolition derby.

Maybe it helps if all of you start to think this as real life terms. If you had money to buy stuff, you'd browse through craigslist or whatever, you'd find a car and think "hey, that car could make really nice addition to my racing roster". Then you'd buy it, fix it, tune it, paint it, wax it, do all kinds of things gear heads do to a car and then it would be perfect for the purpose you bought it for. Of course if you'd wreck it, you might then change it to a derby car (but you wouldn't then change it back to a racing car, let alone back and forth all the time). But you get my point. I think that's what we're after here. :)
 


Anything else or can we move on to Week #11? :)

Just remember that since we're still very much in pre-alpha, all the questions and concerns can't be answered immediately or with enough depth to satisfy you all and some things might even change when we develop the game further. So the only way to get satisfactory answers is to wait until you get to try it out. Patience, please. :)
 

Cono

Member
Tero said:


Anything else or can we move on to Week #11? :)
I think we're ready to move on :D

Tero said:
Just remember that since we're still very much in pre-alpha, all the questions and concerns can't be answered immediately or with enough depth to satisfy you all and some things might even change when we develop the game further. So the only way to get satisfactory answers is to wait until you get to try it out. Patience, please. :)
Wreckfest is already amazing game.
Just keep up the good work and have a nice sunny weekend!
 
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